* [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? @ 2023-06-27 7:50 Philippe Andersson 2023-06-27 8:33 ` Aaron Lauterer [not found] ` <mailman.127.1687943327.232.pve-user@lists.proxmox.com> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-27 7:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Proxmox VE user list Hello List, Quick question. I'm currently looking into upgrading my home Proxmox server (using PC components meant for the home market, for cost reasons), and getting a "real" hardware RAID proposition under these conditions turns out to be quite an ordeal. Intel RST/VROC seems to be the only available option. Can anyone on this list please confirm whether these technologies are supported by the latest Proxmox VE installer/kernel ? Thanks in advance. Ph. A. -- *Philippe Andersson* Unix System Administrator IBA Particle Therapy | Tel: +32-10-475.983 Fax: +32-10-487.707 eMail: pan@iba-group.com <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? 2023-06-27 7:50 [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-27 8:33 ` Aaron Lauterer 2023-06-27 10:03 ` Konold, Martin 2023-06-28 14:55 ` Philippe Andersson [not found] ` <mailman.127.1687943327.232.pve-user@lists.proxmox.com> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Aaron Lauterer @ 2023-06-27 8:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Proxmox VE user list, Philippe Andersson AFAIK, VROC has two variants, actual HW RAID and so-called fake RAID. If it is the fake RAID variant, it will be ignored and the single disks should be shown in the installer. If it is an actual HW RAID, it should only show a single block device for each RAID to the OS. In consumer boards, the chances of VROC being the fake RAID variant are quite high. But why not ZFS with mirrored (maybe even multiple mirrored disk, RAID 10 like)? In case of a disk failure, the handling of it is much nicer and if you can hotplug the disks, you don't even need to power down the machine. Cheers, Aaron On 6/27/23 09:50, Philippe Andersson wrote: > Hello List, > > Quick question. I'm currently looking into upgrading my home Proxmox > server (using PC components meant for the home market, for cost > reasons), and getting a "real" hardware RAID proposition under these > conditions turns out to be quite an ordeal. Intel RST/VROC seems to be > the only available option. > > Can anyone on this list please confirm whether these technologies are > supported by the latest Proxmox VE installer/kernel ? > > Thanks in advance. > > Ph. A. > > -- > > *Philippe Andersson* > Unix System Administrator > IBA Particle Therapy | > Tel: +32-10-475.983 > Fax: +32-10-487.707 > eMail: pan@iba-group.com > <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> > > > > Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> > > The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for > the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to > remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any > use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or > partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons > other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender > immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete > this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be > secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any > such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. > > _______________________________________________ > pve-user mailing list > pve-user@lists.proxmox.com > https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? 2023-06-27 8:33 ` Aaron Lauterer @ 2023-06-27 10:03 ` Konold, Martin 2023-06-28 14:55 ` Philippe Andersson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Konold, Martin @ 2023-06-27 10:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Proxmox VE user list Hi, if you love your data do not go for hw raid but ZFS instead. Proxmox has native support for ZFS. --- Regards ppa. Martin Konold -- Martin Konold - Prokurist, CTO KONSEC GmbH - make things real Amtsgericht Stuttgart, HRB 23690 Geschäftsführer: Andreas Mack Im Köller 3, 70794 Filderstadt, Germany On 2023-06-27 10:33, Aaron Lauterer wrote: > AFAIK, VROC has two variants, actual HW RAID and so-called fake RAID. > If it is the fake RAID variant, it will be ignored and the single > disks should be shown in the installer. > > If it is an actual HW RAID, it should only show a single block device > for each RAID to the OS. > > In consumer boards, the chances of VROC being the fake RAID variant > are quite high. > > But why not ZFS with mirrored (maybe even multiple mirrored disk, RAID > 10 like)? > In case of a disk failure, the handling of it is much nicer and if you > can hotplug the disks, you don't even need to power down the machine. > > > Cheers, > Aaron > > On 6/27/23 09:50, Philippe Andersson wrote: >> Hello List, >> >> Quick question. I'm currently looking into upgrading my home Proxmox >> server (using PC components meant for the home market, for cost >> reasons), and getting a "real" hardware RAID proposition under these >> conditions turns out to be quite an ordeal. Intel RST/VROC seems to be >> the only available option. >> >> Can anyone on this list please confirm whether these technologies are >> supported by the latest Proxmox VE installer/kernel ? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Ph. A. >> >> -- *Philippe Andersson* >> Unix System Administrator >> IBA Particle Therapy | >> Tel: +32-10-475.983 >> Fax: +32-10-487.707 >> eMail: pan@iba-group.com >> <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> >> >> >> >> Disclaimer | Use of IBA >> e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> >> >> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended >> solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is >> intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by >> intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained >> herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, >> communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the >> designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender >> immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and >> delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be >> guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not >> accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pve-user mailing list >> pve-user@lists.proxmox.com >> https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > pve-user mailing list > pve-user@lists.proxmox.com > https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? 2023-06-27 8:33 ` Aaron Lauterer 2023-06-27 10:03 ` Konold, Martin @ 2023-06-28 14:55 ` Philippe Andersson 2023-06-29 7:14 ` Aaron Lauterer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-28 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Proxmox VE user list Hello Aaron, Many thanks for your reply, first of all. On 27/06/2023 10:33, Aaron Lauterer wrote: > AFAIK, VROC has two variants, actual HW RAID and so-called fake RAID. If > it is the fake RAID variant, it will be ignored and the single disks > should be shown in the installer. I don't know whether this "fake RAID vs real RAID" still applies to the recent BIOS/UEFI firmwares. We recently tested (at work) an HP Z4 Gen5 workstation with 2 NVMEs configured in RAID-1 through VROC, and the openSUSE 15.4 we installed there had no issue seeing the resulting LUN. Even better, we could use regular 'mdadm' to monitor the state of the array (although 'mdadm' could not modify its configuration, obviously -- that can only be done through the BIOS/UEFI utilities). But for this to work, you need some so-called "hardware enablement" module loaded in the kernel, that I believe is called 'intel_rst' (not 100% sure -- we no longer have the test workstation, unfortunately). If that module is also bundled with the kernel that ships with Proxmox 8, I don't see why it should not work there as well. > If it is an actual HW RAID, it should only show a single block device > for each RAID to the OS. On the HP Z4 Gen5 workstation we evaluated, that's exactly what happened. > In consumer boards, the chances of VROC being the fake RAID variant are > quite high. Maybe or maybe not, but I'd rather make sure before buying :-/ > But why not ZFS with mirrored (maybe even multiple mirrored disk, RAID > 10 like)? I'm already quite familiar with md-raid + LVM (not on Proxmox, obviously, but on openSUSE), but I never used ZFS. Although the server we're discussing is a home server, it's still a "production" home server and I don't want to face the learning curve when things go south. Based on what I read, ZFS sounds interesting, but I'd rather experiment with it on a test machine first. > In case of a disk failure, the handling of it is much nicer and if you > can hotplug the disks, you don't even need to power down the machine. The budget I plan to spend on the replacement server won't allow for hotplug, I'm afraid, but in terms of disk failure handling, it's hard to beat true HW RAID in my experience. Cheers, Ph. A. > > > Cheers, > Aaron > > On 6/27/23 09:50, Philippe Andersson wrote: >> Hello List, >> >> Quick question. I'm currently looking into upgrading my home Proxmox >> server (using PC components meant for the home market, for cost >> reasons), and getting a "real" hardware RAID proposition under these >> conditions turns out to be quite an ordeal. Intel RST/VROC seems to be >> the only available option. >> >> Can anyone on this list please confirm whether these technologies are >> supported by the latest Proxmox VE installer/kernel ? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Ph. A. >> >> -- >> >> *Philippe Andersson* >> Unix System Administrator >> IBA Particle Therapy | >> Tel: +32-10-475.983 >> Fax: +32-10-487.707 >> eMail: pan@iba-group.com >> <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> >> >> >> >> Disclaimer | Use of IBA >> e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> >> >> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended >> solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is >> intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by >> intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained >> herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, >> communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the >> designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender >> immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and >> delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be >> guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not >> accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> pve-user mailing list >> pve-user@lists.proxmox.com >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.proxmox.com_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_pve-2Duser&d=DwICaQ&c=thdlSQUKcAunxaltNxOnpA&r=rQMCMl4AQx8LkqcV6Z_KaNDuQW75wf_RzKbpnczVnKo&m=1fA5OoIIBMGSqFthga-vsoSusk_dmVO6CrqTSRr_0NzBVgYDwxWF03x-Dfkhd3nI&s=TXlgJFn9uGZNfu6JaVpOmcnGnvLL2buHiv-_Gtz7K0A&e= >> > -- *Philippe Andersson* Unix System Administrator IBA Particle Therapy | Tel: +32-10-475.983 Fax: +32-10-487.707 eMail: pan@iba-group.com <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? 2023-06-28 14:55 ` Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-29 7:14 ` Aaron Lauterer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Aaron Lauterer @ 2023-06-29 7:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Proxmox VE user list, Philippe Andersson On 6/28/23 16:55, Philippe Andersson wrote: > Hello Aaron, > > Many thanks for your reply, first of all. > > On 27/06/2023 10:33, Aaron Lauterer wrote: >> AFAIK, VROC has two variants, actual HW RAID and so-called fake RAID. If >> it is the fake RAID variant, it will be ignored and the single disks >> should be shown in the installer. > I don't know whether this "fake RAID vs real RAID" still applies to the > recent BIOS/UEFI firmwares. > > We recently tested (at work) an HP Z4 Gen5 workstation with 2 NVMEs > configured in RAID-1 through VROC, and the openSUSE 15.4 we installed > there had no issue seeing the resulting LUN. Even better, we could use > regular 'mdadm' to monitor the state of the array (although 'mdadm' > could not modify its configuration, obviously -- that can only be done > through the BIOS/UEFI utilities). And that is fake RAID AFAIU. The BIOS telling the OS how the RAID should be configured. On Linux, that usually means MD RAID. On Windows, a special driver might be necessary. So in the end, a BIOS configured software RAID running on the OS level. On a real RAID, the OS would only see a single disk and would not have any idea about it. Except that the disk might not provide infos like a physical disk would in regard to vendor, model and serial number. Proxmox VE does not come with mdadm. The main reasoning behind this decision can be found in the links here: https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4573#c6 > > But for this to work, you need some so-called "hardware enablement" > module loaded in the kernel, that I believe is called 'intel_rst' (not > 100% sure -- we no longer have the test workstation, unfortunately). If > that module is also bundled with the kernel that ships with Proxmox 8, I > don't see why it should not work there as well. On all the reports we have seen over the last years, users reported that the disks were shown separately even though they configured the RAID in the BIOS. The intel_rst kernel module is not loaded by default on Proxmox VE. > >> If it is an actual HW RAID, it should only show a single block device >> for each RAID to the OS. > On the HP Z4 Gen5 workstation we evaluated, that's exactly what happened. I don't know the intel_rst kernel module. Maybe it hides the actual disks used for the MD raid. I would have been interested in the output of the following commands to confirm that suspicion: mdadm -D /dev/mdX lsblk ls -l /dev/disk/by-*/ > >> In consumer boards, the chances of VROC being the fake RAID variant are >> quite high. > Maybe or maybe not, but I'd rather make sure before buying :- > >> But why not ZFS with mirrored (maybe even multiple mirrored disk, RAID >> 10 like)? > I'm already quite familiar with md-raid + LVM (not on Proxmox, > obviously, but on openSUSE), but I never used ZFS. Although the server > we're discussing is a home server, it's still a "production" home server > and I don't want to face the learning curve when things go south. Based > on what I read, ZFS sounds interesting, but I'd rather experiment with > it on a test machine first. As long as you go with ZFS pools made up of a mirror, or multiple mirrors, there isn't much that can go wrong or result in unpleasant surprises when used as VM storage. For more details, you can check out https://pve.proxmox.com/pve-docs/pve-admin-guide.html#sysadmin_zfs_raid_considerations Cheers, Aaron > >> In case of a disk failure, the handling of it is much nicer and if you >> can hotplug the disks, you don't even need to power down the machine. > The budget I plan to spend on the replacement server won't allow for > hotplug, I'm afraid, but in terms of disk failure handling, it's hard to > beat true HW RAID in my experience. > > Cheers, > > Ph. A. > >> >> >> Cheers, >> Aaron >> >> On 6/27/23 09:50, Philippe Andersson wrote: >>> Hello List, >>> >>> Quick question. I'm currently looking into upgrading my home Proxmox >>> server (using PC components meant for the home market, for cost >>> reasons), and getting a "real" hardware RAID proposition under these >>> conditions turns out to be quite an ordeal. Intel RST/VROC seems to be >>> the only available option. >>> >>> Can anyone on this list please confirm whether these technologies are >>> supported by the latest Proxmox VE installer/kernel ? >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> Ph. A. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Philippe Andersson* >>> Unix System Administrator >>> IBA Particle Therapy | >>> Tel: +32-10-475.983 >>> Fax: +32-10-487.707 >>> eMail: pan@iba-group.com >>> <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> Disclaimer | Use of IBA >>> e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> >>> >>> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended >>> solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is >>> intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by >>> intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained >>> herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, >>> communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the >>> designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender >>> immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and >>> delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be >>> guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not >>> accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> pve-user mailing list >>> pve-user@lists.proxmox.com >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.proxmox.com_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_pve-2Duser&d=DwICaQ&c=thdlSQUKcAunxaltNxOnpA&r=rQMCMl4AQx8LkqcV6Z_KaNDuQW75wf_RzKbpnczVnKo&m=1fA5OoIIBMGSqFthga-vsoSusk_dmVO6CrqTSRr_0NzBVgYDwxWF03x-Dfkhd3nI&s=TXlgJFn9uGZNfu6JaVpOmcnGnvLL2buHiv-_Gtz7K0A&e= >>> >> > > -- > > *Philippe Andersson* > Unix System Administrator > IBA Particle Therapy | > Tel: +32-10-475.983 > Fax: +32-10-487.707 > eMail: pan@iba-group.com > <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> > > > > Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> > > The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for > the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to > remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any > use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or > partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons > other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender > immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete > this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be > secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any > such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. > > _______________________________________________ > pve-user mailing list > pve-user@lists.proxmox.com > https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-user > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <mailman.127.1687943327.232.pve-user@lists.proxmox.com>]
* Re: [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? [not found] ` <mailman.127.1687943327.232.pve-user@lists.proxmox.com> @ 2023-06-28 15:13 ` Philippe Andersson 2023-06-28 15:16 ` Philippe Andersson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-28 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alain Péan via pve-user Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? [not found] ` <mailman.127.1687943327.232.pve-user@lists.proxmox.com> 2023-06-28 15:13 ` Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-28 15:16 ` Philippe Andersson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Philippe Andersson @ 2023-06-28 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: pve-user Bonjour Alain 😉 On 28/06/2023 10:58, Alain Péan via pve-user wrote: > Hi Philippe, > > Why do you want to use an hadware Raid ? Well, the original reason is because it's supposed to be transparent to the OS above (although, as I explained in my reply to Aaron, this may not be entirely true for VROC). > On a home PC, I would use an > NVME SSD of the desired size (prices have decreased a lot in the last > times), and if you want a secure one, look for enterprise grade NVME > (for example Read intensive), even they are more costly, Sure. > and indeed, > you can use ZFS on top of that, to have snapshot for exemple, or > LVMthin... I will look into ZFS, indeed. At the very least, it means I have a fallback solution if I go for the VROC option and it turns out to be unworkable. Thanks to all who responded. Ph. A. -- *Philippe Andersson* Unix System Administrator IBA Particle Therapy | Tel: +32-10-475.983 Fax: +32-10-487.707 eMail: pan@iba-group.com <http://www.iba-worldwide.com> Disclaimer | Use of IBA e-communication<https://iba-worldwide.com/disclaimer> The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the recipient (s) named above. This communication is intended to be and to remain confidential and may be protected by intellectual property rights. Any use of the information contained herein (including but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution of any form) by persons other than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. Ion Beam Applications does not accept liability for any such errors. Thank you for your cooperation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-06-29 7:15 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-06-27 7:50 [PVE-User] Intel RST / VROC support in latest Proxmox? Philippe Andersson 2023-06-27 8:33 ` Aaron Lauterer 2023-06-27 10:03 ` Konold, Martin 2023-06-28 14:55 ` Philippe Andersson 2023-06-29 7:14 ` Aaron Lauterer [not found] ` <mailman.127.1687943327.232.pve-user@lists.proxmox.com> 2023-06-28 15:13 ` Philippe Andersson 2023-06-28 15:16 ` Philippe Andersson
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