[pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Fiona Ebner]

Reported in the community forum [0]. Since Proxmox VE 8/Debian 12,
rsyslog is not installed by default for new installations anymore [1].
The information gathered by the API call comes from the systemd
journal. While 'Syslog' could be interpreted as a shorthand for
"System Log", it's better to be explicit to avoid any confusion.

[0]: https://forum.proxmox.com/threads/141631/post-634675
[1]: https://www.debian.org/releases/bookworm/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#changes-to-system-logging

Signed-off-by: Fiona Ebner <f.ebner@proxmox.com>
---
 www/manager6/node/Config.js | 2 +-
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/www/manager6/node/Config.js b/www/manager6/node/Config.js
index 4d9062f3..d27592ce 100644
--- a/www/manager6/node/Config.js
+++ b/www/manager6/node/Config.js
@@ -244,7 +244,7 @@ Ext.define('PVE.node.Config', {
 	if (caps.nodes['Sys.Syslog']) {
 	    me.items.push({
 		xtype: 'proxmoxJournalView',
-		title: 'Syslog',
+		title: gettext('System Log'),
 		iconCls: 'fa fa-list',
 		groups: ['services'],
 		disabled: !caps.nodes['Sys.Syslog'],
-- 
2.39.2

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Dietmar Maurer]

> The information gathered by the API call comes from the systemd
> journal. While 'Syslog' could be interpreted as a shorthand for
> "System Log", it's better to be explicit to avoid any confusion.

> -		title: 'Syslog',
> +		title: gettext('System Log'),

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog

> In computing, syslog /ˈsɪslɒɡ/ is a standard for message logging.

IMHO, it is a commonly used technical term, and that is why we
do not even translate it. Every reasonable admin known what is meant!

With your change:

-		title: 'Syslog',
+		title: gettext('System Log'),

we now need to translate "System Log" to >20 different languages,
and I am quite sure those translation makes it less clear what
it actually refers to.

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Dietmar Maurer]

I can also imaging using "Events" instead of "Syslog".

-		title: 'Syslog',
+		title: gettext('Events'),

IMHO this is easier to translate.


> With your change:
> 
> -		title: 'Syslog',
> +		title: gettext('System Log'),
> 
> we now need to translate "System Log" to >20 different languages,
> and I am quite sure those translation makes it less clear what
> it actually refers to.

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Fiona Ebner]

Am 15.02.24 um 19:25 schrieb Dietmar Maurer:
> I can also imaging using "Events" instead of "Syslog".
> 
> -		title: 'Syslog',
> +		title: gettext('Events'),
> 
> IMHO this is easier to translate.
> 

Then at least "System Events". Otherwise it leaves the question "what
kind of events". And by far not all log messages correspond to events,
so IMHO this is worse.

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Fiona Ebner]

Am 15.02.24 um 19:20 schrieb Dietmar Maurer:
>> The information gathered by the API call comes from the systemd
>> journal. While 'Syslog' could be interpreted as a shorthand for
>> "System Log", it's better to be explicit to avoid any confusion.
> 
>> -		title: 'Syslog',
>> +		title: gettext('System Log'),
> 
> From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog
> 
>> In computing, syslog /ˈsɪslɒɡ/ is a standard for message logging.
> 
> IMHO, it is a commonly used technical term, and that is why we
> do not even translate it. Every reasonable admin known what is meant!
> 
> With your change:
> 
> -		title: 'Syslog',
> +		title: gettext('System Log'),
> 
> we now need to translate "System Log" to >20 different languages,
> and I am quite sure those translation makes it less clear what
> it actually refers to.

A lot of people will associate "Syslog" with /var/log/syslog which just
isn't there by default for new PVE 8 installations. I don't see how
translation would be an issue at all. It's the "System log"/"System's
log"/"Log of the system" which surely can be expressed naturally in
different languages too.

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Fiona Ebner]

Am 15.02.24 um 19:20 schrieb Dietmar Maurer:
>> The information gathered by the API call comes from the systemd
>> journal. While 'Syslog' could be interpreted as a shorthand for
>> "System Log", it's better to be explicit to avoid any confusion.
> 
>> -		title: 'Syslog',
>> +		title: gettext('System Log'),
> 
> From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog
> 
>> In computing, syslog /ˈsɪslɒɡ/ is a standard for message logging.
> 

As discussed off-list with Dietmar, the argument is that the messages
are exactly those that are recorded via the syslog standard/mechanism.
So "Syslog" is more precise in that sense, because "System Log" doesn't
capture that fact and I'm retracting my patch.

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Fabian Grünbichler]

> Fiona Ebner <f.ebner@proxmox.com> hat am 16.02.2024 09:29 CET geschrieben:
> Am 15.02.24 um 19:20 schrieb Dietmar Maurer:
> >> The information gathered by the API call comes from the systemd
> >> journal. While 'Syslog' could be interpreted as a shorthand for
> >> "System Log", it's better to be explicit to avoid any confusion.
> > 
> >> -		title: 'Syslog',
> >> +		title: gettext('System Log'),
> > 
> > From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog
> > 
> >> In computing, syslog /ˈsɪslɒɡ/ is a standard for message logging.
> > 
> 
> As discussed off-list with Dietmar, the argument is that the messages
> are exactly those that are recorded via the syslog standard/mechanism.
> So "Syslog" is more precise in that sense, because "System Log" doesn't
> capture that fact and I'm retracting my patch.

while I don't mind (at all!) that that part of the UI/API is labelled syslog (I don't think it's hard to understand that it gives you the system logs of that node, and "syslog" is a bit like "Kleenex" in that regard ;)) - I do have to disagree here ;) journald does a lot more than just collecting syslog(3) messages - it also collects stdout/stderr of systemd-managed services (unless configured in a non-default fashion), messages explicitly sent to it over its own interface (like those by systemd ;)), and messages from the kernel (like dmesg), including the audit subsystem..

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Fiona Ebner]

Am 16.02.24 um 10:01 schrieb Fabian Grünbichler:
> 
>> Fiona Ebner <f.ebner@proxmox.com> hat am 16.02.2024 09:29 CET geschrieben:
>> Am 15.02.24 um 19:20 schrieb Dietmar Maurer:
>>>> The information gathered by the API call comes from the systemd
>>>> journal. While 'Syslog' could be interpreted as a shorthand for
>>>> "System Log", it's better to be explicit to avoid any confusion.
>>>
>>>> -		title: 'Syslog',
>>>> +		title: gettext('System Log'),
>>>
>>> From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syslog
>>>
>>>> In computing, syslog /ˈsɪslɒɡ/ is a standard for message logging.
>>>
>>
>> As discussed off-list with Dietmar, the argument is that the messages
>> are exactly those that are recorded via the syslog standard/mechanism.
>> So "Syslog" is more precise in that sense, because "System Log" doesn't
>> capture that fact and I'm retracting my patch.
> 
> while I don't mind (at all!) that that part of the UI/API is labelled syslog (I don't think it's hard to understand that it gives you the system logs of that node, and "syslog" is a bit like "Kleenex" in that regard ;)) - I do have to disagree here ;) journald does a lot more than just collecting syslog(3) messages - it also collects stdout/stderr of systemd-managed services (unless configured in a non-default fashion), messages explicitly sent to it over its own interface (like those by systemd ;)), and messages from the kernel (like dmesg), including the audit subsystem..

Oh right, so "Syslog" is not actually more precise. Please consider the
patch open again. Of course, we could alternatively use "Systemd
Journal" without gettext().

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH manager] ui: node: system: avoid using 'Syslog'

[Dietmar Maurer]

> while I don't mind (at all!) that that part of the UI/API is labelled syslog (I don't think it's hard to understand that it gives you the system logs of that node, and "syslog" is a bit like "Kleenex" in that regard ;)) - I do have to disagree here ;) journald does a lot more than just collecting syslog(3) messages - it also collects stdout/stderr of systemd-managed services (unless configured in a non-default fashion), messages explicitly sent to it over its own interface (like those by systemd ;)), and messages from the kernel (like dmesg), including the audit subsystem..

IMHO, those are just Implementation details of systemd init..