[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 0/5] improve & unify installation(-related) documentation

[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 0/5] improve & unify installation(-related) documentation

[Christoph Heiss]

This series in short tries to bring the documentation for the
ISO installation flow and anything related to it in line the with
respective documentation for PMG. As both products use the same
installer (minus small differences such as LVM options and BTRFS
support) and overall same basic system setup, it is worth unifying them.

There is (of course) still room for improvement, esp. regarding the apt
repo/update section as pointed out by Alex. Still like to get this in
rather sooner than later, to not diverge even more.

I'll send the appropriate pmg-docs series (see v1 of that [0]) when this
has been finalized & applied, to keep it transparent and easier to
reason about.

[0] https://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pmg-devel/2024-March/002870.html

Revision history
----------------
v1: https://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pve-devel/2024-March/062056.html

Notable changes v1 -> v2:
  * dropped already-applied patches
  * slight rewording in some places based on suggestions

Christoph Heiss (5):
  package-repos: improve wording partly based on pmg-docs
  installation: iso: improve & align wording with pmg-docs
  installation: lvm-options: improve & align wording with pmg-docs
  installation: zfs-options: improve & align wording with pmg-docs
  installation: iso: reflow location and password dialog screenshots

 pve-installation.adoc  | 144 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++---------------
 pve-package-repos.adoc |  26 ++++----
 2 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 63 deletions(-)

--
2.43.0

[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 1/5] package-repos: improve wording partly based on pmg-docs

[Christoph Heiss]

Some sentences are phrased better and more expansive in pmg-docs, so
take them from there and adapt them as needed.

Rephrases some redundant parts (e.g. enterprise repo introduction) and
moves the email/changelog paragraph to the top, since that applies to
all repos.

Signed-off-by: Christoph Heiss <c.heiss@proxmox.com>
---
Changes v1 -> v2:
  * deduplicate email/changelog paragraph, move to top
  * deduplicate enterprise repo introduction sentence
  * very slightly reword some phrases

 pve-package-repos.adoc | 26 ++++++++++++++------------
 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-)

diff --git a/pve-package-repos.adoc b/pve-package-repos.adoc
index b0c2a95..4586f70 100644
--- a/pve-package-repos.adoc
+++ b/pve-package-repos.adoc
@@ -8,6 +8,10 @@ endif::wiki[]
 {pve} uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool[APT] as its
 package management tool like any other Debian-based system.

+{pve} automatically checks for package updates on a daily basis. The `root@pam`
+user is notified via email about available updates. From the GUI, The
+'Changelog' button can be used to see more details about the selected update.
+
 Repositories in {pve}
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@@ -57,21 +61,18 @@ deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main contrib
 {pve} Enterprise Repository
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-This is the default, stable, and recommended repository, available for all {pve}
-subscription users. It contains the most stable packages and is suitable for
-production use. The `pve-enterprise` repository is enabled by default:
+This is the recommended repository and available for all {pve} subscription
+users. It contains the most stable packages and is suitable for production use.
+The `pve-enterprise` repository is enabled by default:

 .File `/etc/apt/sources.list.d/pve-enterprise.list`
 ----
 deb https://enterprise.proxmox.com/debian/pve bookworm pve-enterprise
 ----

-The `root@pam` user is notified via email about available updates. Click the
-'Changelog' button in the GUI to see more details about the selected update.
-
-You need a valid subscription key to access the `pve-enterprise` repository.
-Different support levels are available. Further details can be found at
-{pricing-url}.
+Please note that you need a valid subscription key to access the
+`pve-enterprise` repository. We offer different support levels, which you can
+find further details about at {pricing-url}.

 NOTE: You can disable this repository by commenting out the above line using a
 `#` (at the start of the line). This prevents error messages if your host does
@@ -82,9 +83,10 @@ repository in that case.
 {pve} No-Subscription Repository
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-This is the recommended repository for testing and non-production use. Its
-packages are not as heavily tested and validated. You don't need a subscription key
-to access the `pve-no-subscription` repository.
+As the name suggests, you do not need a subscription key to access
+this repository. It can be used for testing and non-production
+use. It's not recommended to use this on production servers, as these
+packages are not always as heavily tested and validated.

 We recommend to configure this repository in `/etc/apt/sources.list`.

--
2.43.1

[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 2/5] installation: iso: improve & align wording with pmg-docs

[Christoph Heiss]

New paragraphs were taken from pmg-docs and adapted. Most changes
here are the result of basically "diffing" both documentations, choosing
the better prased/sounding sections. Some wording were slightly changed
as necessary to further improve them.

The equivalent changes will be done for pmg-docs too, to ensure they are
really the same in the end.

Signed-off-by: Christoph Heiss <c.heiss@proxmox.com>
---
Changes v1 -> v2:
  * fix bullet point indentation

 pve-installation.adoc | 123 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++--------------
 1 file changed, 82 insertions(+), 41 deletions(-)

diff --git a/pve-installation.adoc b/pve-installation.adoc
index 6b44fc0..cba3b58 100644
--- a/pve-installation.adoc
+++ b/pve-installation.adoc
@@ -43,7 +43,7 @@ The installer ISO image includes the following:
 * Complete operating system (Debian Linux, 64-bit)

 * The {pve} installer, which partitions the local disk(s) with ext4, XFS,
-  BTRFS (technology preview), or ZFS and installs the operating system.
+  BTRFS (technology preview), or ZFS and installs the operating system

 * {pve} Linux kernel with KVM and LXC support

@@ -52,9 +52,9 @@ The installer ISO image includes the following:

 * Web-based management interface

-NOTE: All existing data on the for installation selected drives will be removed
-during the installation process. The installer does not add boot menu entries
-for other operating systems.
+NOTE: All existing data on the selected drives will be removed during the
+installation process. The installer does not add boot menu entries for other
+operating systems.

 Please insert the xref:installation_prepare_media[prepared installation media]
 (for example, USB flash drive or CD-ROM) and boot from it.
@@ -65,8 +65,8 @@ when booting an installer prior to {pve} version 8.1.

 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-grub-menu.png"]

-After choosing the correct entry (e.g. Boot from USB) the {pve} menu will be
-displayed and one of the following options can be selected:
+After choosing the correct entry (for example, 'Boot from USB') the {pve} menu
+will be displayed, and one of the following options can be selected:

 Install {pve} (Graphical)::

@@ -78,7 +78,7 @@ from the respective button. For example, `ALT + N` to press a `Next` button.

 Install {pve} (Terminal UI)::

-Starts the console-mode installation wizard. It provides the same overall
+Starts the terminal-mode installation wizard. It provides the same overall
 installation experience as the graphical installer, but has generally better
 compatibility with very old and very new hardware.

@@ -123,39 +123,46 @@ Runs `memtest86+`. This is useful to check if the memory is functional and free
 of errors. Secure Boot must be turned off in the UEFI firmware setup utility to
 run this option.

+You normally select *Install {pve} (Graphical)* to start the installation.
+
 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-select-target-disk.png"]

-After selecting *Install {pve}* and accepting the EULA, the prompt to select the
-target hard disk(s) will appear. The `Options` button opens the dialog to select
-the target file system.
+The first step is to read our EULA (End User License Agreement). Following this,
+you can select the target hard disk(s) for the installation.
+
+CAUTION: By default, the whole server is used and all existing data is removed.
+Make sure there is no important data on the server before proceeding with the
+installation.

-The default file system is `ext4`. The Logical Volume Manager (LVM) is used when
-`ext4` or `xfs` is selected. Additional options to restrict LVM space
-can also be set (see <<advanced_lvm_options,below>>).
+The `Options` button lets you select the target file system, which
+defaults to `ext4`. The installer uses LVM if you select
+`ext4` or `xfs` as a file system, and offers additional options to
+restrict LVM space (see xref:advanced_lvm_options[below]).

-{pve} can be installed on ZFS. As ZFS offers several software RAID levels, this
-is an option for systems that don't have a hardware RAID controller. The target
-disks must be selected in the `Options` dialog. More ZFS specific settings can
-be changed under `Advanced Options` (see <<advanced_zfs_options,below>>).
+{pve} can also be installed on ZFS. As ZFS offers several software RAID levels,
+this is an option for systems that don't have a hardware RAID controller. The
+target disks must be selected in the `Options` dialog. More ZFS specific
+settings can be changed under xref:advanced_zfs_options[`Advanced Options`].

 WARNING: ZFS on top of any hardware RAID is not supported and can result in data
 loss.

 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-select-location.png", float="left"]

-The next page asks for basic configuration options like the location, the time
-zone, and keyboard layout. The location is used to select a download server
-close by to speed up updates. The installer usually auto-detects these settings.
-They only need to be changed in the rare case that auto detection fails or a
-different keyboard layout should be used.
+The next page asks for basic configuration options like your location, time
+zone, and keyboard layout. The location is used to select a nearby download
+server, in order to increase the speed of updates. The installer is usually able
+to auto-detect these settings, so you only need to change them in rare
+situations when auto-detection fails, or when you want to use a keyboard layout
+not commonly used in your country.

 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-set-password.png"]

-Next the password of the superuser (root) and an email address needs to be
+Next the password of the superuser (`root`) and an email address needs to be
 specified. The password must consist of at least 5 characters. It's highly
 recommended to use a stronger password. Some guidelines are:

-- Use a minimum password length of 12 to 14 characters.
+- Use a minimum password length of at least 12 characters.

 - Include lowercase and uppercase alphabetic characters, numbers, and symbols.

@@ -169,35 +176,69 @@ For example:

 - Information about available package updates.

-- Error messages from periodic CRON jobs.
+- Error messages from periodic 'cron' jobs.

 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-setup-network.png"]

-The last step is the network configuration. Network interfaces that are UP show
-a filled circle in front of their name in the drop down menu. Please note that
-during installation you can either use an IPv4 or IPv6 address, but not both. To
-configure a dual stack node, add additional IP addresses after the installation.
+All those notification mails will be sent to the specified email address.
+
+The last step is the network configuration. Network interfaces that are 'UP'
+show a filled circle in front of their name in the drop down menu. Please note
+that during installation you can either specify an IPv4 or IPv6 address, but not
+both. To configure a dual stack node, add additional IP addresses after the
+installation.

 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-installation.png", float="left"]

-The next step shows a summary of the previously selected options. Re-check every
-setting and use the `Previous` button if a setting needs to be changed. To
-accept, press `Install`. The installation starts to format disks and copies
-packages to the target. Please wait until this step has finished; then remove
-the installation medium and restart your system.
+The next step shows a summary of the previously selected options. Please
+re-check every setting and use the `Previous` button if a setting needs to be
+changed.
+
+After clicking `Install`, the installer will begin to format the disks and copy
+packages to the target disk(s). Please wait until this step has finished; then
+remove the installation medium and restart your system.

 [thumbnail="screenshot/pve-install-summary.png"]

+Copying the packages usually takes several minutes, mostly depending on the
+speed of the installation medium and the target disk performance.
+
+When copying and setting up the packages has finished, you can reboot the
+server. This will be done automatically after a few seconds by default.
+
+.Installation Failure
+
 If the installation failed, check out specific errors on the second TTY
-(`CTRL + ALT + F2') and ensure that the systems meets the
-xref:install_minimal_requirements[minimum requirements]. If the installation
-is still not working, look at the xref:getting_help[how to get help chapter].
+('CTRL + ALT + F2') and ensure that the systems meets the
+xref:install_minimal_requirements[minimum requirements].
+
+If the installation is still not working, look at the
+xref:getting_help[how to get help chapter].
+
+
+Accessing the Management Interface Post-Installation
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+
+[thumbnail="screenshot/gui-login-window.png"]
+
+After a succesful installation and reboot of the system you can use the {pve}
+web interface for further configuration.
+
+. Point your browser to the IP address given during the installation and port
+  8006, for example: https://youripaddress:8006
+
+. Log in using the `root` (realm 'PAM') username and the password chosen during
+  installation.
+
+. Upload your subscription key to gain access to the Enterprise repository.
+  Otherwise, you will need to set up one of the public, less tested package
+  repositories to get updates for security fixes, bug fixes, and new features.
+
+. Check the IP configuration and hostname.

-Further configuration is done via the Proxmox web interface. Point your browser
-to the IP address given during installation (https://youripaddress:8006).
+. Check the timezone.

-NOTE: Default login is "root" (realm 'PAM') and the root password was defined
-during the installation process.
+. Check your xref:chapter_pve_firewall[Firewall settings].

 [[advanced_lvm_options]]
 Advanced LVM Configuration Options
--
2.43.1

[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 3/5] installation: lvm-options: improve & align wording with pmg-docs

[Christoph Heiss]

These changes are the result of basically "diffing" both documentations,
choosing the better prased/sounding sections. Some wording were also
slightly changed as necessary to further improve them.

The equivalent changes will be done for pmg-docs too, to ensure they are
really the same in the end.

Signed-off-by: Christoph Heiss <c.heiss@proxmox.com>
---
Changes v1 -> v2:
  * no changes

 pve-installation.adoc | 9 +++++----
 1 file changed, 5 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/pve-installation.adoc b/pve-installation.adoc
index cba3b58..eaa800f 100644
--- a/pve-installation.adoc
+++ b/pve-installation.adoc
@@ -245,8 +245,8 @@ Advanced LVM Configuration Options
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 The installer creates a Volume Group (VG) called `pve`, and additional Logical
-Volumes (LVs) called `root`, `data`, and `swap`. To control the size of these
-volumes use:
+Volumes (LVs) called `root`, `data`, and `swap`, if `ext4` or `xfs` is used. To
+control the size of these volumes use:

 `hdsize`::

@@ -284,8 +284,9 @@ configuration will be adapted accordingly.

 `minfree`::

-Defines the amount of free space left in the LVM volume group `pve`. With more
-than 128GB storage available the default is 16GB, else `hdsize/8` will be used.
+Defines the amount of free space that should be left in the LVM volume group
+`pmg`. With more than 128GB storage available, the default is 16GB, otherwise
+`hdsize/8` will be used.
 +
 NOTE: LVM requires free space in the VG for snapshot creation (not required for
 lvmthin snapshots).
--
2.43.1

[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 4/5] installation: zfs-options: improve & align wording with pmg-docs

[Christoph Heiss]

These changes are the result of basically "diffing" both documentations,
choosing the better prased/sounding sections. Some wording were also
slightly changed as necessary to further improve them.

The equivalent changes will be done for pmg-docs too, to ensure they are
really the same in the end.

Signed-off-by: Christoph Heiss <c.heiss@proxmox.com>
---
Changes v1 -> v2:
  * no changes

 pve-installation.adoc | 8 ++++----
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/pve-installation.adoc b/pve-installation.adoc
index eaa800f..f4a898b 100644
--- a/pve-installation.adoc
+++ b/pve-installation.adoc
@@ -294,10 +294,10 @@ lvmthin snapshots).
 [[advanced_zfs_options]]
 Advanced ZFS Configuration Options
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-The installer creates the ZFS pool `rpool`. No swap space is created but you can
-reserve some unpartitioned space on the install disks for swap. You can also
-create a swap zvol after the installation, although this can lead to problems.
-(see <<zfs_swap,ZFS swap notes>>).
+The installer creates the ZFS pool `rpool`, if ZFS is used. No swap space is
+created but you can reserve some unpartitioned space on the install disks for
+swap. You can also create a swap zvol after the installation, although this can
+lead to problems (see xref:zfs_swap[ZFS swap notes]).

 `ashift`::

--
2.43.1

[pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 5/5] installation: iso: reflow location and password dialog screenshots

[Christoph Heiss]

The same changes were done in commit

   4c35e536b ("installation: reword/expand/reflow and fix login thumbnail")

in pmg-docs to improve the layout as good as possible.

Signed-off-by: Christoph Heiss <c.heiss@proxmox.com>
---
Changes v1 -> v2:
  * no changes

 pve-installation.adoc | 4 ++--
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/pve-installation.adoc b/pve-installation.adoc
index f4a898b..d123cd4 100644
--- a/pve-installation.adoc
+++ b/pve-installation.adoc
@@ -147,7 +147,7 @@ settings can be changed under xref:advanced_zfs_options[`Advanced Options`].
 WARNING: ZFS on top of any hardware RAID is not supported and can result in data
 loss.

-[thumbnail="screenshot/pve-select-location.png", float="left"]
+[thumbnail="screenshot/pve-select-location.png"]

 The next page asks for basic configuration options like your location, time
 zone, and keyboard layout. The location is used to select a nearby download
@@ -156,7 +156,7 @@ to auto-detect these settings, so you only need to change them in rare
 situations when auto-detection fails, or when you want to use a keyboard layout
 not commonly used in your country.

-[thumbnail="screenshot/pve-set-password.png"]
+[thumbnail="screenshot/pve-set-password.png", float="left"]

 Next the password of the superuser (`root`) and an email address needs to be
 specified. The password must consist of at least 5 characters. It's highly
--
2.43.1

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 1/5] package-repos: improve wording partly based on pmg-docs

[Stefan Sterz]

On Mon Mar 11, 2024 at 1:29 PM CET, Christoph Heiss wrote:
> Some sentences are phrased better and more expansive in pmg-docs, so
> take them from there and adapt them as needed.
>
> Rephrases some redundant parts (e.g. enterprise repo introduction) and
> moves the email/changelog paragraph to the top, since that applies to
> all repos.
>
> Signed-off-by: Christoph Heiss <c.heiss@proxmox.com>
> ---
> Changes v1 -> v2:
>   * deduplicate email/changelog paragraph, move to top
>   * deduplicate enterprise repo introduction sentence
>   * very slightly reword some phrases
>
>  pve-package-repos.adoc | 26 ++++++++++++++------------
>  1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 12 deletions(-)
>
> diff --git a/pve-package-repos.adoc b/pve-package-repos.adoc
> index b0c2a95..4586f70 100644
> --- a/pve-package-repos.adoc
> +++ b/pve-package-repos.adoc
> @@ -8,6 +8,10 @@ endif::wiki[]
>  {pve} uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool[APT] as its
>  package management tool like any other Debian-based system.
>
> +{pve} automatically checks for package updates on a daily basis. The `root@pam`
> +user is notified via email about available updates. From the GUI, The

"The" at the end of this line should be lower case.

> +'Changelog' button can be used to see more details about the selected update.
> +
>  Repositories in {pve}
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> @@ -57,21 +61,18 @@ deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main contrib
>  {pve} Enterprise Repository
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -This is the default, stable, and recommended repository, available for all {pve}
> -subscription users. It contains the most stable packages and is suitable for
> -production use. The `pve-enterprise` repository is enabled by default:
> +This is the recommended repository and available for all {pve} subscription
> +users. It contains the most stable packages and is suitable for production use.
> +The `pve-enterprise` repository is enabled by default:
>
>  .File `/etc/apt/sources.list.d/pve-enterprise.list`
>  ----
>  deb https://enterprise.proxmox.com/debian/pve bookworm pve-enterprise
>  ----
>
> -The `root@pam` user is notified via email about available updates. Click the
> -'Changelog' button in the GUI to see more details about the selected update.
> -
> -You need a valid subscription key to access the `pve-enterprise` repository.
> -Different support levels are available. Further details can be found at
> -{pricing-url}.
> +Please note that you need a valid subscription key to access the
> +`pve-enterprise` repository. We offer different support levels, which you can
> +find further details about at {pricing-url}.
>
>  NOTE: You can disable this repository by commenting out the above line using a
>  `#` (at the start of the line). This prevents error messages if your host does
> @@ -82,9 +83,10 @@ repository in that case.
>  {pve} No-Subscription Repository
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -This is the recommended repository for testing and non-production use. Its
> -packages are not as heavily tested and validated. You don't need a subscription key
> -to access the `pve-no-subscription` repository.
> +As the name suggests, you do not need a subscription key to access
> +this repository. It can be used for testing and non-production
> +use. It's not recommended to use this on production servers, as these
> +packages are not always as heavily tested and validated.
>
>  We recommend to configure this repository in `/etc/apt/sources.list`.
>
> --
> 2.43.1
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pve-devel mailing list
> pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com
> https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 1/5] package-repos: improve wording partly based on pmg-docs

[Christoph Heiss]

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 03:10:38PM +0100, Stefan Sterz wrote:
> On Mon Mar 11, 2024 at 1:29 PM CET, Christoph Heiss wrote:
[..]
> > diff --git a/pve-package-repos.adoc b/pve-package-repos.adoc
> > index b0c2a95..4586f70 100644
> > --- a/pve-package-repos.adoc
> > +++ b/pve-package-repos.adoc
> > @@ -8,6 +8,10 @@ endif::wiki[]
> >  {pve} uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool[APT] as its
> >  package management tool like any other Debian-based system.
> >
> > +{pve} automatically checks for package updates on a daily basis. The `root@pam`
> > +user is notified via email about available updates. From the GUI, The
>
> "The" at the end of this line should be lower case.

Indeed - thanks for taking a look & catching that!

Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH docs v2 0/5] improve & unify installation(-related) documentation

[Christoph Heiss]

v3: https://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pve-devel/2024-March/062314.html

On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 01:29:06PM +0100, Christoph Heiss wrote:
> This series in short tries to bring the documentation for the
> ISO installation flow and anything related to it in line the with
> respective documentation for PMG. As both products use the same
> installer (minus small differences such as LVM options and BTRFS
> support) and overall same basic system setup, it is worth unifying them.
>
> There is (of course) still room for improvement, esp. regarding the apt
> repo/update section as pointed out by Alex. Still like to get this in
> rather sooner than later, to not diverge even more.
>
> I'll send the appropriate pmg-docs series (see v1 of that [0]) when this
> has been finalized & applied, to keep it transparent and easier to
> reason about.
>
> [0] https://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pmg-devel/2024-March/002870.html
>
> Revision history
> ----------------
> v1: https://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pve-devel/2024-March/062056.html
>
> Notable changes v1 -> v2:
>   * dropped already-applied patches
>   * slight rewording in some places based on suggestions
>
> Christoph Heiss (5):
>   package-repos: improve wording partly based on pmg-docs
>   installation: iso: improve & align wording with pmg-docs
>   installation: lvm-options: improve & align wording with pmg-docs
>   installation: zfs-options: improve & align wording with pmg-docs
>   installation: iso: reflow location and password dialog screenshots
>
>  pve-installation.adoc  | 144 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++---------------
>  pve-package-repos.adoc |  26 ++++----
>  2 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 63 deletions(-)
>
> --
> 2.43.0
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pve-devel mailing list
> pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com
> https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel
>
>