[pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Dominik Csapak]

since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
clamd/clamav requires more than before.

Bump the requirements from 2/4 to 4/6 GiB, this should be enough to run
most setups without issues.

Signed-off-by: Dominik Csapak <d.csapak@proxmox.com>
---
 pmg-planning-deployment.adoc | 4 ++--
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc b/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc
index 5b7addd..e2e318d 100644
--- a/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc
+++ b/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc
@@ -111,7 +111,7 @@ Minimum System Requirements
 
 * CPU: 64bit (Intel 64 or AMD64)
 
-* 2 GiB RAM
+* 4 GiB RAM
 
 * Bootable CD-ROM-drive or USB boot support
 
@@ -128,7 +128,7 @@ Recommended System Requirements
 * Multi-core CPU: 64bit (Intel 64 or AMD64), +
 ** for use in a virtual machine, activate Intel VT/AMD-V CPU flag
 
-* 4 GiB RAM
+* 6 GiB RAM
 
 * Bootable CD-ROM-drive or USB boot support
 
-- 
2.39.5



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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Stoiko Ivanov]

Thanks for tackling this!

changes make sense:
Reviewed-By: Stoiko Ivanov <s.ivanov@proxmox.com>

On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:07:42 +0100
Dominik Csapak <d.csapak@proxmox.com> wrote:

> since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
> clamd/clamav requires more than before.
> 
> Bump the requirements from 2/4 to 4/6 GiB, this should be enough to run
> most setups without issues.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Dominik Csapak <d.csapak@proxmox.com>
> ---
>  pmg-planning-deployment.adoc | 4 ++--
>  1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc b/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc
> index 5b7addd..e2e318d 100644
> --- a/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc
> +++ b/pmg-planning-deployment.adoc
> @@ -111,7 +111,7 @@ Minimum System Requirements
>  
>  * CPU: 64bit (Intel 64 or AMD64)
>  
> -* 2 GiB RAM
> +* 4 GiB RAM
>  
>  * Bootable CD-ROM-drive or USB boot support
>  
> @@ -128,7 +128,7 @@ Recommended System Requirements
>  * Multi-core CPU: 64bit (Intel 64 or AMD64), +
>  ** for use in a virtual machine, activate Intel VT/AMD-V CPU flag
>  
> -* 4 GiB RAM
> +* 6 GiB RAM
>  
>  * Bootable CD-ROM-drive or USB boot support
>  




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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Thomas Lamprecht]

Am 26.02.25 um 15:07 schrieb Dominik Csapak:
> since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
> clamd/clamav requires more than before.

But only for ZFS where by default ARC takes up half of memory?

If that's indeed the case I'd rather enable lower ZFS default ARC for such
systems in the installer.


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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Stoiko Ivanov]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:24:51 +0100
Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> wrote:

> Am 26.02.25 um 15:07 schrieb Dominik Csapak:
> > since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
> > clamd/clamav requires more than before.  
> 
> But only for ZFS where by default ARC takes up half of memory?
2G Ram only does not work too well with clamav (maybe after/when
updating only) - at least on my test-containers, where ARC should not be
counted towards their cgroup memory limit I've seen a few OOM-kills of
clamav when setting 2G IIRC.


> 
> If that's indeed the case I'd rather enable lower ZFS default ARC for such
> systems in the installer.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pmg-devel mailing list
> pmg-devel@lists.proxmox.com
> https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pmg-devel
> 
> 



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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Thomas Lamprecht]

Am 26.02.25 um 15:36 schrieb Stoiko Ivanov:
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:24:51 +0100
> Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> wrote:
> 
>> Am 26.02.25 um 15:07 schrieb Dominik Csapak:
>>> since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
>>> clamd/clamav requires more than before.  
>>
>> But only for ZFS where by default ARC takes up half of memory?
> 2G Ram only does not work too well with clamav (maybe after/when
> updating only) - at least on my test-containers, where ARC should not be
> counted towards their cgroup memory limit I've seen a few OOM-kills of
> clamav when setting 2G IIRC.


Looking at an installed system here and following your and Gabriel's
reply it would look like we should increase the minimum requirement to
2.5 GiB and keep 4 GiB for recommended minimum ones.

As the minimum requirement basically should cover the needs to get
it installed and up and running. I did some heavy testing with millions
of mails per day on PMG installations with 4 GiB of memory, worked out
fine. One of our production PMGs also has just 4 GiB total memory, while
the other has 8 GiB but hovers around 3.8 - 3.9 GiB usage, so I really
do not see why we should increase the recommended memory to 6 GiB...


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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Stoiko Ivanov]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:53:49 +0100
Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> wrote:

> Am 26.02.25 um 15:36 schrieb Stoiko Ivanov:
> > On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:24:51 +0100
> > Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> Am 26.02.25 um 15:07 schrieb Dominik Csapak:  
> >>> since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
> >>> clamd/clamav requires more than before.    
> >>
> >> But only for ZFS where by default ARC takes up half of memory?  
> > 2G Ram only does not work too well with clamav (maybe after/when
> > updating only) - at least on my test-containers, where ARC should not be
> > counted towards their cgroup memory limit I've seen a few OOM-kills of
> > clamav when setting 2G IIRC.  
> 
> 
> Looking at an installed system here and following your and Gabriel's
> reply it would look like we should increase the minimum requirement to
> 2.5 GiB and keep 4 GiB for recommended minimum ones.
> 
> As the minimum requirement basically should cover the needs to get
> it installed and up and running. I did some heavy testing with millions
> of mails per day on PMG installations with 4 GiB of memory, worked out
> fine. One of our production PMGs also has just 4 GiB total memory, while
> the other has 8 GiB but hovers around 3.8 - 3.9 GiB usage, so I really
> do not see why we should increase the recommended memory to 6 GiB...

2.5 GiB as minimum should work as well (after checking a few systems with
ClamAV running) - and I see the point of minimum meaning minimum

as for the recommended - that depends a bit if you have other signatures
enabled (securite raises this a bit), or another antivirus running - and
if we want to cover that in the recommended setting - then I'd say 5G (if
only to not have to change that again when clamAV signatures grow some
more).




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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Thomas Lamprecht]

Am 26.02.25 um 16:29 schrieb Stoiko Ivanov:
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:53:49 +0100
> Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> wrote:
> 
>> Am 26.02.25 um 15:36 schrieb Stoiko Ivanov:
>>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:24:51 +0100
>>> Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> Am 26.02.25 um 15:07 schrieb Dominik Csapak:  
>>>>> since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
>>>>> clamd/clamav requires more than before.    
>>>>
>>>> But only for ZFS where by default ARC takes up half of memory?  
>>> 2G Ram only does not work too well with clamav (maybe after/when
>>> updating only) - at least on my test-containers, where ARC should not be
>>> counted towards their cgroup memory limit I've seen a few OOM-kills of
>>> clamav when setting 2G IIRC.  
>>
>>
>> Looking at an installed system here and following your and Gabriel's
>> reply it would look like we should increase the minimum requirement to
>> 2.5 GiB and keep 4 GiB for recommended minimum ones.
>>
>> As the minimum requirement basically should cover the needs to get
>> it installed and up and running. I did some heavy testing with millions
>> of mails per day on PMG installations with 4 GiB of memory, worked out
>> fine. One of our production PMGs also has just 4 GiB total memory, while
>> the other has 8 GiB but hovers around 3.8 - 3.9 GiB usage, so I really
>> do not see why we should increase the recommended memory to 6 GiB...
> 
> 2.5 GiB as minimum should work as well (after checking a few systems with
> ClamAV running) - and I see the point of minimum meaning minimum
> 
> as for the recommended - that depends a bit if you have other signatures
> enabled (securite raises this a bit), or another antivirus running - and
> if we want to cover that in the recommended setting - then I'd say 5G (if
> only to not have to change that again when clamAV signatures grow some
> more).

No, I do not want to cover opt-in additional stuff, as where does one
cuts the line there? And third-party tools can require dozens of GiB if
they are some crazy "AI" tool or what not, so not sure how we could say
5 GiB will cover Extra Stuff™.

A generic hint that using opt-in features, extra signatures or third party
tools requiring more memory might still be good though to clarify that we
indeed can only (sanely) state the recommendations for a base system.


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Re: [pmg-devel] [PATCH pmg-docs] bump minimum memory requirement

[Gabriel Goller]

On 26.02.2025 15:24, Thomas Lamprecht wrote:
>Am 26.02.25 um 15:07 schrieb Dominik Csapak:
>> since a while, we need more than 4 GiB memory for pmg, because
>> clamd/clamav requires more than before.
>
>But only for ZFS where by default ARC takes up half of memory?
>
>If that's indeed the case I'd rather enable lower ZFS default ARC for such
>systems in the installer.

As stoiko mentioned, the issue is clamd's memory consumption. Testing
with 2GB RAM and minimal ZFS ARC (64MB, the recommended minimum) still
triggers OOM-kills for me.


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