From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com> Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (firstgate.proxmox.com [212.224.123.68]) by lore.proxmox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CFC51FF16F for <inbox@lore.proxmox.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:12:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id EC8C21F049; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:12:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 11:03:48 -0700 To: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <mailman.32.1741889565.416.pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> List-Id: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel.lists.proxmox.com> List-Post: <mailto:pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> From: Raven King via pve-devel <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> Precedence: list Cc: Raven King <thekingofravens@disroot.org> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com List-Subscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel>, <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=subscribe> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/options/pve-devel>, <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pve-devel/> Reply-To: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> List-Help: <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=help> Subject: [pve-devel] Proposal For Podman Container Support Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7272848956388337369==" Errors-To: pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com Sender: "pve-devel" <pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============7272848956388337369== Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <thekingofravens@disroot.org> X-Original-To: pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com Delivered-To: pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (firstgate.proxmox.com [212.224.123.68]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by lists.proxmox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A35CC8B59 for <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:12:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 60FED1F016 for <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:12:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from layka.disroot.org (layka.disroot.org [178.21.23.139]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTPS for <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:12:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail01.disroot.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E419A25DA9 for <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:03:55 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from layka.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with ESMTP id wD-EKbKQRHEh for <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 2025 19:03:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1741889030; bh=ObkJ1Fwlz0A3gft01ohWP9qvUldWE2KsEttK7AvIEeM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=C5acsh1CQ1Q4DClT5HQUpjpS3iLbd6f6t8KbjOeEJ1pZqYTQ0AgzUAzYyEHLwREXR adGJlDrR9fetvp8QIXMcGEfFR//jc8qkbABgf0YHzicNGSM38ORsC+18WDLpbS6MG7 fg+1ibCdtnsjyLHyv4mOU0MmnkQN/Gvgs4fHIFahBd2ByL3Ahuqrb7ERYLKK/sVmk9 rwagIpcCD3AF63CvJXP0uEg9u7tmT7A2n/dS24D0fMGxOJJ7TbO757Lpt8AmGf+luk N0Vc7fYJCTh3Z9N8uSlk403oNDUX5bq7BIMQfnzurHIVIP6dFbkDaB3bLXiDbhchXA XLQgMkFwyLm8g== Message-ID: <e0a39815-26cc-4530-9bcd-5e5e2f1f1ae4@disroot.org> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 11:03:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Raven King <thekingofravens@disroot.org> Subject: Proposal For Podman Container Support X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 BAYES_50 0.8 Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain DMARC_PASS -0.1 DMARC pass policy HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. See https://knowledge.validity.com/hc/en-us/articles/20961730681243 for more information. SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 Hello, This is my first time writing to this mailing list. I have never contributed to proxmox but I would like to try and write a feature that allows native container support (not inside an LXC or VM). My goal would be that you could manage those containers much like LXC/VMs with similar UI behavior (resource usage views, easy access to container console, and resource sharing). Its a large undertaking, and I would probably want to get a little experience with the proxmox codebase first. *Why do this?* 1. It is parroted by users frequently. Just look up "run docker in proxmox" and you will see dozens. 2. It would add a major use case to proxmox. 3. For me personally, it removes a major pain point of using proxmox, which is setting up an LXC to then share resources with to then setup a docker image to then share resources with. Or using docker directly and tearing my hair out as it magically breaks all my proxmox network config. *Why Podman?* 1. Easy enough to use. 2. Packaging. The support in debian is straightforward and won't confuse anyone. This means the project won't have to maintain podman itself in any way. 3. Security. Podman needs limited privileges to operate compared to docker. This makes it easier to mesh with things such as user accounts. 4. Interop. It easily goes to/from kubernetes, which can help in some enterprise use cases. Also doesn't interact in ways that break existing pve config mechanisms. *What does podman offer an LXC doesn't?* 1. Easy deployment, you can just pull images that someone prebuilt for a purpose, including most docker images. 2. Directly sharing a host directory (not a whole drive) such as single zfs datastore. While achievable in LXC, you have to do a bunch of user mapping and the setup is rather involved. *What drawbacks have I considered? *1. Using privileged ports in a podman container is a little tricky without root. Proxmox mostly runs as root though, so this is really only a problem for secondary users. 2. I will take a lot of work to ensure the networking works in a way consistent with other networking in proxmox. 3. Increase support burden as users who aren't entirely familiar with docker/podman containers ask questions that could be answered through research. 4. Some services people might want to run, such as nginx proxy manager, are gonna be very hard to use in this way due to number 1. I am writing to the mailing list before even beginning on this endeavor to get several questions answered: 1. Do y'all have any general tips and pointers about navigating and working with the proxmox codebase? 2. Where is a good list to grab bugs to get familiar with proxmox structure and what functionality is where? I have some hardware, but I am not capable of testing stuff like multi-gpu setups. I see https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/describecomponents.cgi?product=pve but there is a lot of components to proxmox. I have a hard time picking a spot to start. 3. Are there any major drawbacks to container support that need consideration? 4. Are there specific drawbacks to podman that need consideration? 5. Anything else I am overlooking with this idea? Sincerely, Raven King --===============7272848956388337369== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ pve-devel mailing list pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel --===============7272848956388337369==--