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Subject: Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH v3 qemu-server 11/11] qcow2: add external
snapshot support
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Subject: Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH v3 qemu-server 11/11] qcow2: add external
snapshot support
To: "DERUMIER, Alexandre" <alexandre.derumier@groupe-cyllene.com>,
"pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com" <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>,
"f.gruenbichler@proxmox.com" <f.gruenbichler@proxmox.com>
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From: Fabio Fantoni <fabio.fantoni@m2r.biz>
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Il 20/01/2025 14:44, DERUMIER, Alexandre ha scritto:
> Hi Fabio !
>
>>> In this implementation I don't see the possibility of using them on
>>> raw
>>> disks (on files) from a fast look, or am I wrong? If so, why? I think
>>> the main use would be in cases like that where you don't have
>>> snapshot
>> <support by default
> Ah, we have discussed about it with Fabian. the V1/v2 had raw support,
> but I have removed it from v3 because it's simplify a lot the code,
> and from my test, I don't see anymore too much difference between qcow2
> && raw. (maybe 10% diff max)
>
> Note that you can preallocated 100% the base qcow2 image if you want.
> (or only metadatas, that's the defaut)
>
>
> I'm going to do more extensive benchmark, but qcow2 have improved a lot
> since last years (with sub-allocation clusters), so it should be too
> far from a cow filesystem like zfs,btrfs. (sure, they are still
> overhead vs a simple raw).
>
>
>
Thanks for your reply, I don't remember exactly when my tests date back
(for external snapshot), it's been several years now, and I had done
them on the default versions of Debian 10, I used, and still use on most
servers, with libvirt.We had all the servers with enterprise hdd in
raid1 or raid10 and the difference in performance between pre-allocated
raw and qcow2, even just used with external snapshots was clearly
visible (also without benchmark). I haven't had enough time for a few
years to keep myself well informed about the virtualization part and do
significant testing, I've recently started investing a lot of time in
learning and testing again with proxmox, even though I didn't have many
other things to manage.
in recent years we use only or almost only ssd and nvme disks (on new or
improved servers) and it is not necessary to have them pre-allocated,
the latter are basically not pre-allocated and the proxmox ones (latest)
with lvm-thin, however we are upgrading some servers (and we will do
more) to proxmox keeping the existing storage on pre-allocated raw files
and it would be useful for example to have snapshot support also in
these cases, unfortunately since it is not based on libvirt I cannot do
it even manually (in a fairly fast and safe way that I had tested and
documented) from the command line and I do not know if it would be
possible with some workarounds and more operations to force it even if
not implemented in proxmox.
I use qcow2 by default on my PCs (with libvirt though) for some test vms
where I use snapshots quite a bit, but internal and from virt-manager,
using on ssd/nvme and usually a single active vm I don't notice any
particular performance problems, in truth I've never done any tests
regarding performance on my workstations in this regard
for this implementation instead I think it is important to measure and
document in order to give enough information to users to make good
choices (and seems you want do it)
out of curiosity, besides the obvious cases where external snapshots
would be useful, i.e. on raw files and on lvm (not lvm-thin), what other
cases would be useful given that they already have snapshot support
(qcow2 with the internal one, zfs, btrfs, lvm-thin etc)?
not having it on raw files I think would take away a lot of its
usefulness, but I could be wrong if there are uses I can't imagine,
maybe make something more possible with replicas and migrations? (I
haven't looked into it enough)
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