From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com> Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (firstgate.proxmox.com [212.224.123.68]) by lore.proxmox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAD011FF172 for <inbox@lore.proxmox.com>; Tue, 1 Apr 2025 12:47:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 409581F08D; Tue, 1 Apr 2025 12:47:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <6b44b21c-5399-47a5-8e06-3c1d3e1eaab9@proxmox.com> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2025 12:46:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Beta To: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com>, Dominik Csapak <d.csapak@proxmox.com> References: <20250324111529.338025-1-alexandre.derumier@groupe-cyllene.com> <mailman.127.1742814976.359.pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> <502327008.3598.1743501156797@webmail.proxmox.com> <ce2544c2-d467-4eff-ba4f-6df6c3350fe2@proxmox.com> <52ef2b59-21ec-4a6c-b528-47f1e11c691e@proxmox.com> Content-Language: de-AT, en-US From: Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> Autocrypt: addr=t.lamprecht@proxmox.com; keydata= xsFNBFsLjcYBEACsaQP6uTtw/xHTUCKF4VD4/Wfg7gGn47+OfCKJQAD+Oyb3HSBkjclopC5J uXsB1vVOfqVYE6PO8FlD2L5nxgT3SWkc6Ka634G/yGDU3ZC3C/7NcDVKhSBI5E0ww4Qj8s9w OQRloemb5LOBkJNEUshkWRTHHOmk6QqFB/qBPW2COpAx6oyxVUvBCgm/1S0dAZ9gfkvpqFSD 90B5j3bL6i9FIv3YGUCgz6Ue3f7u+HsEAew6TMtlt90XV3vT4M2IOuECG/pXwTy7NtmHaBQ7 UJBcwSOpDEweNob50+9B4KbnVn1ydx+K6UnEcGDvUWBkREccvuExvupYYYQ5dIhRFf3fkS4+ wMlyAFh8PQUgauod+vqs45FJaSgTqIALSBsEHKEs6IoTXtnnpbhu3p6XBin4hunwoBFiyYt6 YHLAM1yLfCyX510DFzX/Ze2hLqatqzY5Wa7NIXqYYelz7tXiuCLHP84+sV6JtEkeSUCuOiUY virj6nT/nJK8m0BzdR6FgGtNxp7RVXFRz/+mwijJVLpFsyG1i0Hmv2zTn3h2nyGK/I6yhFNt dX69y5hbo6LAsRjLUvZeHXpTU4TrpN/WiCjJblbj5um5eEr4yhcwhVmG102puTtuCECsDucZ jpKpUqzXlpLbzG/dp9dXFH3MivvfuaHrg3MtjXY1i+/Oxyp5iwARAQABzTNUaG9tYXMgTGFt cHJlY2h0IChBdXRoLTQpIDx0LmxhbXByZWNodEBwcm94bW94LmNvbT7CwY4EEwEIADgWIQQO R4qbEl/pah9K6VrTZCM6gDZWBgUCWwuNxgIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAK CRDTZCM6gDZWBm/jD/4+6JB2s67eaqoP6x9VGaXNGJPCscwzLuxDTCG90G9FYu29VcXtubH/ bPwsyBbNUQpqTm/s4XboU2qpS5ykCuTjqavrcP33tdkYfGcItj2xMipJ1i3TWvpikQVsX42R G64wovLs/dvpTYphRZkg5DwhgTmy3mRkmofFCTa+//MOcNOORltemp984tWjpR3bUJETNWpF sKGZHa3N4kCNxb7A+VMsJZ/1gN3jbQbQG7GkJtnHlWkw9rKCYqBtWrnrHa4UAvSa9M/XCIAB FThFGqZI1ojdVlv5gd6b/nWxfOPrLlSxbUo5FZ1i/ycj7/24nznW1V4ykG9iUld4uYUY86bB UGSjew1KYp9FmvKiwEoB+zxNnuEQfS7/Bj1X9nxizgweiHIyFsRqgogTvLh403QMSGNSoArk tqkorf1U+VhEncIn4H3KksJF0njZKfilrieOO7Vuot1xKr9QnYrZzJ7m7ZxJ/JfKGaRHXkE1 feMmrvZD1AtdUATZkoeQtTOpMu4r6IQRfSdwm/CkppZXfDe50DJxAMDWwfK2rr2bVkNg/yZI tKLBS0YgRTIynkvv0h8d9dIjiicw3RMeYXyqOnSWVva2r+tl+JBaenr8YTQw0zARrhC0mttu cIZGnVEvQuDwib57QLqMjQaC1gazKHvhA15H5MNxUhwm229UmdH3KM7BTQRbC43GARAAyTkR D6KRJ9Xa2fVMh+6f186q0M3ni+5tsaVhUiykxjsPgkuWXWW9MbLpYXkzX6h/RIEKlo2BGA95 QwG5+Ya2Bo3g7FGJHAkXY6loq7DgMp5/TVQ8phsSv3WxPTJLCBq6vNBamp5hda4cfXFUymsy HsJy4dtgkrPQ/bnsdFDCRUuhJHopnAzKHN8APXpKU6xV5e3GE4LwFsDhNHfH/m9+2yO/trcD txSFpyftbK2gaMERHgA8SKkzRhiwRTt9w5idOfpJVkYRsgvuSGZ0pcD4kLCOIFrer5xXudk6 NgJc36XkFRMnwqrL/bB4k6Pi2u5leyqcXSLyBgeHsZJxg6Lcr2LZ35+8RQGPOw9C0ItmRjtY ZpGKPlSxjxA1WHT2YlF9CEt3nx7c4C3thHHtqBra6BGPyW8rvtq4zRqZRLPmZ0kt/kiMPhTM 8wZAlObbATVrUMcZ/uNjRv2vU9O5aTAD9E5r1B0dlqKgxyoImUWB0JgpILADaT3VybDd3C8X s6Jt8MytUP+1cEWt9VKo4vY4Jh5vwrJUDLJvzpN+TsYCZPNVj18+jf9uGRaoK6W++DdMAr5l gQiwsNgf9372dbMI7pt2gnT5/YdG+ZHnIIlXC6OUonA1Ro/Itg90Q7iQySnKKkqqnWVc+qO9 GJbzcGykxD6EQtCSlurt3/5IXTA7t6sAEQEAAcLBdgQYAQgAIBYhBA5HipsSX+lqH0rpWtNk IzqANlYGBQJbC43GAhsMAAoJENNkIzqANlYGD1sP/ikKgHgcspEKqDED9gQrTBvipH85si0j /Jwu/tBtnYjLgKLh2cjv1JkgYYjb3DyZa1pLsIv6rGnPX9bH9IN03nqirC/Q1Y1lnbNTynPk IflgvsJjoTNZjgu1wUdQlBgL/JhUp1sIYID11jZphgzfDgp/E6ve/8xE2HMAnf4zAfJaKgD0 F+fL1DlcdYUditAiYEuN40Ns/abKs8I1MYx7Yglu3RzJfBzV4t86DAR+OvuF9v188WrFwXCS RSf4DmJ8tntyNej+DVGUnmKHupLQJO7uqCKB/1HLlMKc5G3GLoGqJliHjUHUAXNzinlpE2Vj C78pxpwxRNg2ilE3AhPoAXrY5qED5PLE9sLnmQ9AzRcMMJUXjTNEDxEYbF55SdGBHHOAcZtA kEQKub86e+GHA+Z8oXQSGeSGOkqHi7zfgW1UexddTvaRwE6AyZ6FxTApm8wq8NT2cryWPWTF BDSGB3ujWHMM8ERRYJPcBSjTvt0GcEqnd+OSGgxTkGOdufn51oz82zfpVo1t+J/FNz6MRMcg 8nEC+uKvgzH1nujxJ5pRCBOquFZaGn/p71Yr0oVitkttLKblFsqwa+10Lt6HBxm+2+VLp4Ja 0WZNncZciz3V3cuArpan/ZhhyiWYV5FD0pOXPCJIx7WS9PTtxiv0AOS4ScWEUmBxyhFeOpYa DrEx In-Reply-To: <52ef2b59-21ec-4a6c-b528-47f1e11c691e@proxmox.com> X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.039 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DMARC_MISSING 0.1 Missing DMARC policy KAM_DMARC_STATUS 0.01 Test Rule for DKIM or SPF Failure with Strict Alignment RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. 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[proxmox.com] Subject: Re: [pve-devel] [PATCH qemu-server 1/1] qemu: add offline migration from dead node X-BeenThere: pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel.lists.proxmox.com> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/options/pve-devel>, <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pve-devel/> List-Post: <mailto:pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> List-Help: <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel>, <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com Sender: "pve-devel" <pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com> Am 01.04.25 um 12:19 schrieb Dominik Csapak: > while i also agree to all said here, I have one counter point to offer: > > In the case that such an operation is necessary (e.g. HA is not wanted/needed/possible > for what ever reason), the user will fall back to do it manually (iow. 'mv source target') > which is at least as dangerous as exposing over the API, since > > * now the admins sharing the system must share root@pam credentials (ssh/console access) > (alternatively setup sudo, which has it's own problems) Setups with many admins need to handle already how they can log in as root, be it through a jump user (`doas` is a thing if sudo is deemed to complex), some identity provider (LDAP, OIDC, ... with PAM configuration), as root operations are required for other things too. > * it promotes manually modifying /etc/pve/ content Yeah, as that's what's actually required after manual assessment, abstracting that away won't really bring a big benefit IMO. > > * any error could be even more fatal than if done via the API > (e.g. mv of the wrong file, from the wrong node, etc.) This cannot be said for sure, these are unknown unknowns. FWIW, the API could make it worse too compared to an admin carefully fixing this according to the needs of a specific situation at hand. > IMHO ways forward for this scenario could be: > > * use cluster level locking only for config move? (not sure if performance is still > a concern for this action, since parallel moves don't happen too much?) What does this solve? The old node is still in an unknown state and does not sees any pmxcfs changes at all. The VM can still run and cause issues with duplicate unsynchronized resource access and all the other woes that can happen if the same guest runs twice. > > * provide a special CLI tool/cmd to deal with that -> would minimize potential > errors but is still contained to root equivalent users This would still have your own arguments w.r.t. root login speaking against that. And it would not be that big of a difference as for local involved resources the tool cannot work if the source node cannot be talked with and for all-shared resources the simple config move is as safe as such a tool would get in the context of a dead source node, as for either the admin must ensure it's actually dead. > * link to the doc section for it from the UI with a big caveat > https://pve.proxmox.com/pve-docs/pve-admin-guide.html#_recovery As Fabian wrote, such disclaimers might be nice for shifting the blame but are not enough in practice for such an operation. And Fabians point wasn't that doing it on the CLI is less dangerous, its about the same either way, but that exposing this as well-integrated feature makes it seem much less dangerous to the user, especially those that are less experienced and should be stumped and ask some support channel for help. That said, the actual first step to move this forward would IMO be to create an extensive documentation/how-to for how such things can be resolved and what one needs to watch out for, sort of check-list style might be a good format. As that alone should help users a lot already, and that would also make it much clearer what a more integrated (semi-automated) way could look like. Which could be a check tool that helps with assessing the recovery depending on config, storage (types), network, mappings, ... which would ensure that common issues/blockers are not missed and will even help experienced admins. If that cannot be first documented and then optionally transformed into a hands-off evaluation checker tool, or if that's deemed to not help users, I really do not see how an API integrated solution can do so without just hand-waving all actual and real issues for why this does not already exists away. _______________________________________________ pve-devel mailing list pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel