From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com> Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (firstgate.proxmox.com [212.224.123.68]) by lore.proxmox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CF471FF176 for <inbox@lore.proxmox.com>; Fri, 7 Feb 2025 12:58:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 233F09C26; Fri, 7 Feb 2025 12:58:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5f754fd3-1144-4c01-9ba4-654c085d48f1@proxmox.com> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2025 12:57:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Beta To: Fiona Ebner <f.ebner@proxmox.com>, Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> References: <20250130145124.317745-1-m.carrara@proxmox.com> <7pmkq3by7xrcxr6wku6wvrpoa52xi3q7k5br2ztkwmmvhggyxz@h3vx353ekvky> <D7KM46BDB9EW.SJLPO4401I9E@proxmox.com> <21d31eb7-60d7-46e0-8497-fd93f56574e2@proxmox.com> <a8fcbc79-412a-4c6d-8e7f-220dcbc8cf49@proxmox.com> <0183f296-f15a-423a-a6b2-47e8dbd9316f@proxmox.com> <5ca3fd52-5790-4f83-a85c-a95b9b1e6bca@proxmox.com> <80e17d10-1b05-47d5-bd04-e0934a9981d4@proxmox.com> Content-Language: en-GB, de-AT From: Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> Autocrypt: addr=t.lamprecht@proxmox.com; keydata= xsFNBFsLjcYBEACsaQP6uTtw/xHTUCKF4VD4/Wfg7gGn47+OfCKJQAD+Oyb3HSBkjclopC5J uXsB1vVOfqVYE6PO8FlD2L5nxgT3SWkc6Ka634G/yGDU3ZC3C/7NcDVKhSBI5E0ww4Qj8s9w OQRloemb5LOBkJNEUshkWRTHHOmk6QqFB/qBPW2COpAx6oyxVUvBCgm/1S0dAZ9gfkvpqFSD 90B5j3bL6i9FIv3YGUCgz6Ue3f7u+HsEAew6TMtlt90XV3vT4M2IOuECG/pXwTy7NtmHaBQ7 UJBcwSOpDEweNob50+9B4KbnVn1ydx+K6UnEcGDvUWBkREccvuExvupYYYQ5dIhRFf3fkS4+ wMlyAFh8PQUgauod+vqs45FJaSgTqIALSBsEHKEs6IoTXtnnpbhu3p6XBin4hunwoBFiyYt6 YHLAM1yLfCyX510DFzX/Ze2hLqatqzY5Wa7NIXqYYelz7tXiuCLHP84+sV6JtEkeSUCuOiUY virj6nT/nJK8m0BzdR6FgGtNxp7RVXFRz/+mwijJVLpFsyG1i0Hmv2zTn3h2nyGK/I6yhFNt dX69y5hbo6LAsRjLUvZeHXpTU4TrpN/WiCjJblbj5um5eEr4yhcwhVmG102puTtuCECsDucZ jpKpUqzXlpLbzG/dp9dXFH3MivvfuaHrg3MtjXY1i+/Oxyp5iwARAQABzTNUaG9tYXMgTGFt cHJlY2h0IChBdXRoLTQpIDx0LmxhbXByZWNodEBwcm94bW94LmNvbT7CwY4EEwEIADgWIQQO R4qbEl/pah9K6VrTZCM6gDZWBgUCWwuNxgIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAK CRDTZCM6gDZWBm/jD/4+6JB2s67eaqoP6x9VGaXNGJPCscwzLuxDTCG90G9FYu29VcXtubH/ bPwsyBbNUQpqTm/s4XboU2qpS5ykCuTjqavrcP33tdkYfGcItj2xMipJ1i3TWvpikQVsX42R G64wovLs/dvpTYphRZkg5DwhgTmy3mRkmofFCTa+//MOcNOORltemp984tWjpR3bUJETNWpF sKGZHa3N4kCNxb7A+VMsJZ/1gN3jbQbQG7GkJtnHlWkw9rKCYqBtWrnrHa4UAvSa9M/XCIAB FThFGqZI1ojdVlv5gd6b/nWxfOPrLlSxbUo5FZ1i/ycj7/24nznW1V4ykG9iUld4uYUY86bB UGSjew1KYp9FmvKiwEoB+zxNnuEQfS7/Bj1X9nxizgweiHIyFsRqgogTvLh403QMSGNSoArk tqkorf1U+VhEncIn4H3KksJF0njZKfilrieOO7Vuot1xKr9QnYrZzJ7m7ZxJ/JfKGaRHXkE1 feMmrvZD1AtdUATZkoeQtTOpMu4r6IQRfSdwm/CkppZXfDe50DJxAMDWwfK2rr2bVkNg/yZI tKLBS0YgRTIynkvv0h8d9dIjiicw3RMeYXyqOnSWVva2r+tl+JBaenr8YTQw0zARrhC0mttu cIZGnVEvQuDwib57QLqMjQaC1gazKHvhA15H5MNxUhwm229UmdH3KM7BTQRbC43GARAAyTkR D6KRJ9Xa2fVMh+6f186q0M3ni+5tsaVhUiykxjsPgkuWXWW9MbLpYXkzX6h/RIEKlo2BGA95 QwG5+Ya2Bo3g7FGJHAkXY6loq7DgMp5/TVQ8phsSv3WxPTJLCBq6vNBamp5hda4cfXFUymsy HsJy4dtgkrPQ/bnsdFDCRUuhJHopnAzKHN8APXpKU6xV5e3GE4LwFsDhNHfH/m9+2yO/trcD txSFpyftbK2gaMERHgA8SKkzRhiwRTt9w5idOfpJVkYRsgvuSGZ0pcD4kLCOIFrer5xXudk6 NgJc36XkFRMnwqrL/bB4k6Pi2u5leyqcXSLyBgeHsZJxg6Lcr2LZ35+8RQGPOw9C0ItmRjtY ZpGKPlSxjxA1WHT2YlF9CEt3nx7c4C3thHHtqBra6BGPyW8rvtq4zRqZRLPmZ0kt/kiMPhTM 8wZAlObbATVrUMcZ/uNjRv2vU9O5aTAD9E5r1B0dlqKgxyoImUWB0JgpILADaT3VybDd3C8X s6Jt8MytUP+1cEWt9VKo4vY4Jh5vwrJUDLJvzpN+TsYCZPNVj18+jf9uGRaoK6W++DdMAr5l gQiwsNgf9372dbMI7pt2gnT5/YdG+ZHnIIlXC6OUonA1Ro/Itg90Q7iQySnKKkqqnWVc+qO9 GJbzcGykxD6EQtCSlurt3/5IXTA7t6sAEQEAAcLBdgQYAQgAIBYhBA5HipsSX+lqH0rpWtNk IzqANlYGBQJbC43GAhsMAAoJENNkIzqANlYGD1sP/ikKgHgcspEKqDED9gQrTBvipH85si0j /Jwu/tBtnYjLgKLh2cjv1JkgYYjb3DyZa1pLsIv6rGnPX9bH9IN03nqirC/Q1Y1lnbNTynPk IflgvsJjoTNZjgu1wUdQlBgL/JhUp1sIYID11jZphgzfDgp/E6ve/8xE2HMAnf4zAfJaKgD0 F+fL1DlcdYUditAiYEuN40Ns/abKs8I1MYx7Yglu3RzJfBzV4t86DAR+OvuF9v188WrFwXCS RSf4DmJ8tntyNej+DVGUnmKHupLQJO7uqCKB/1HLlMKc5G3GLoGqJliHjUHUAXNzinlpE2Vj C78pxpwxRNg2ilE3AhPoAXrY5qED5PLE9sLnmQ9AzRcMMJUXjTNEDxEYbF55SdGBHHOAcZtA kEQKub86e+GHA+Z8oXQSGeSGOkqHi7zfgW1UexddTvaRwE6AyZ6FxTApm8wq8NT2cryWPWTF BDSGB3ujWHMM8ERRYJPcBSjTvt0GcEqnd+OSGgxTkGOdufn51oz82zfpVo1t+J/FNz6MRMcg 8nEC+uKvgzH1nujxJ5pRCBOquFZaGn/p71Yr0oVitkttLKblFsqwa+10Lt6HBxm+2+VLp4Ja 0WZNncZciz3V3cuArpan/ZhhyiWYV5FD0pOXPCJIx7WS9PTtxiv0AOS4ScWEUmBxyhFeOpYa DrEx In-Reply-To: <80e17d10-1b05-47d5-bd04-e0934a9981d4@proxmox.com> X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.042 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DMARC_MISSING 0.1 Missing DMARC policy KAM_DMARC_STATUS 0.01 Test Rule for DKIM or SPF Failure with Strict Alignment RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. 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[proxmox.com] Subject: Re: [pve-devel] [RFC v1 pve-storage 0/6] RFC: Tighter API Control for Storage Plugins X-BeenThere: pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel.lists.proxmox.com> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/options/pve-devel>, <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pve-devel/> List-Post: <mailto:pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> List-Help: <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel>, <mailto:pve-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: Proxmox VE development discussion <pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com> Cc: Wolfgang Bumiller <w.bumiller@proxmox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com Sender: "pve-devel" <pve-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com> Am 07.02.25 um 10:59 schrieb Fiona Ebner: > I just thought that in the context of a major release, many plugins will > need to adapt to the new underlying Debian environment and thus provide Not sure how much one needs to adapt here, our plugins IIRC never required any adaption just due to doing a major Debian upgrade, being written in a quite long-term stable interpreted language as perl after all, as most external plugins are too. Both external plugin examples linked in [0] actually just return the $apiversion defined by pve-storage (if smaller than some max version though), which is quite definitively to avoid annoying warnings as those plugins can be used for more than one major release at the same time. While these might not even be affected by the reset, it's IMO another sign that the current mechanism is not ideal and a reset might be even more dangerous in practice (sure, plugin authors fault to do some questionable things, but I cannot really blame them tbh). > new versions in any case. Doing breaking changes outside of a major > release bears bigger risk that users might miss new plugin versions I nowhere proposed doing such breaking changes outside of a major release, just that they should not reset AGE to zero as we did last time. > (e.g. installed the plugin once without configuring/checking for updates > later). With "full major release" which of the following do you mean: > 1. deprecated in PVE N.x, dropped in PVE (N+1).x for the same x > 2. deprecated in PVE N.x, still supported throughout PVE (N+1), dropped > with PVE (N+2).0 3. no explicit "future" deprecation period, but on a new major version reduce the API age such (or some other operation resulting in basically the same thing, depending on what versioning we then use) that all API versions that happened before PVE ($N - 1) become unsupported and any compat code can be dropped. Then we can add a check to the pve($N-1)to$N checker script that tests if any installed storage plugin would become unsupported. This would be a relatively simple deprecation process modification and can be adapted quite quickly before cutting any new major release, if really needed that is. By default, it would avoid churn from unconditional upfront deprecation, as one can decide for each major release if it's actually worth it. btw. Printing some notice for plugin with outdated version in the XtoY checker scripts might be a good idea in any way, that's not as intrusive as warning on every module load and makes it more likely that users check if their plugin got a new release they might want to update. > We also lose a little flexibility about how we can do breaking changes: > e.g. changing parameter order would require adding a new method, > changing the existing one to be a wrapper and then dropping the wrapper > at some point - not so bad I guess, but forces us to come up with new > names for those methods. Yeah sure, albeit I really have a hard time in seeing the (slight) loss in flexibility as actual problem, causing churn for all plugin users and devs certainly is one though. And as said, when this actually becomes a problem and maintenance burden we can come up with solutions, if the pain is big enough and a lot of stuff accumulated we can also to a (partial) AGE reset, having some more cruft added during that major release cycle is not really a problem that we can avoid either way. And I know it was an example, but just reordering parameters certainly does not qualify for that. And if the old name really was perfect then there's always the good ol'reliable addition of a 2, or N+1, at the end of the name, that's honest and telling as it directly conveys that there is/was an N-1 method. > But I can see your point why a full APIAGE reset is bad and not doing > any is fine by me. The opt-in env-var or similar for deprecation > warnings seems like a good approach IMHO. Just need to communicate this > properly to plugin authors if we add it. The deadline for a breaking > change could then also be included in the warning message. The wiki [0] should for now become the central place for docs, I made the initial draft in a [0]: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Storage_Plugin_Development _______________________________________________ pve-devel mailing list pve-devel@lists.proxmox.com https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pve-devel