From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (firstgate.proxmox.com [212.224.123.68]) by lore.proxmox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DF191FF15C for ; Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:34:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 795E7EFD1; Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:34:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2025 16:34:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Beta To: Proxmox Datacenter Manager development discussion References: <20250128122520.167796-1-l.wagner@proxmox.com> <4d3871ae-6cbc-40e4-96e2-8aee37563f79@proxmox.com> Content-Language: en-GB, de-AT From: Thomas Lamprecht Autocrypt: addr=t.lamprecht@proxmox.com; keydata= xsFNBFsLjcYBEACsaQP6uTtw/xHTUCKF4VD4/Wfg7gGn47+OfCKJQAD+Oyb3HSBkjclopC5J uXsB1vVOfqVYE6PO8FlD2L5nxgT3SWkc6Ka634G/yGDU3ZC3C/7NcDVKhSBI5E0ww4Qj8s9w OQRloemb5LOBkJNEUshkWRTHHOmk6QqFB/qBPW2COpAx6oyxVUvBCgm/1S0dAZ9gfkvpqFSD 90B5j3bL6i9FIv3YGUCgz6Ue3f7u+HsEAew6TMtlt90XV3vT4M2IOuECG/pXwTy7NtmHaBQ7 UJBcwSOpDEweNob50+9B4KbnVn1ydx+K6UnEcGDvUWBkREccvuExvupYYYQ5dIhRFf3fkS4+ wMlyAFh8PQUgauod+vqs45FJaSgTqIALSBsEHKEs6IoTXtnnpbhu3p6XBin4hunwoBFiyYt6 YHLAM1yLfCyX510DFzX/Ze2hLqatqzY5Wa7NIXqYYelz7tXiuCLHP84+sV6JtEkeSUCuOiUY virj6nT/nJK8m0BzdR6FgGtNxp7RVXFRz/+mwijJVLpFsyG1i0Hmv2zTn3h2nyGK/I6yhFNt dX69y5hbo6LAsRjLUvZeHXpTU4TrpN/WiCjJblbj5um5eEr4yhcwhVmG102puTtuCECsDucZ jpKpUqzXlpLbzG/dp9dXFH3MivvfuaHrg3MtjXY1i+/Oxyp5iwARAQABzTNUaG9tYXMgTGFt cHJlY2h0IChBdXRoLTQpIDx0LmxhbXByZWNodEBwcm94bW94LmNvbT7CwY4EEwEIADgWIQQO R4qbEl/pah9K6VrTZCM6gDZWBgUCWwuNxgIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAK CRDTZCM6gDZWBm/jD/4+6JB2s67eaqoP6x9VGaXNGJPCscwzLuxDTCG90G9FYu29VcXtubH/ bPwsyBbNUQpqTm/s4XboU2qpS5ykCuTjqavrcP33tdkYfGcItj2xMipJ1i3TWvpikQVsX42R G64wovLs/dvpTYphRZkg5DwhgTmy3mRkmofFCTa+//MOcNOORltemp984tWjpR3bUJETNWpF sKGZHa3N4kCNxb7A+VMsJZ/1gN3jbQbQG7GkJtnHlWkw9rKCYqBtWrnrHa4UAvSa9M/XCIAB FThFGqZI1ojdVlv5gd6b/nWxfOPrLlSxbUo5FZ1i/ycj7/24nznW1V4ykG9iUld4uYUY86bB UGSjew1KYp9FmvKiwEoB+zxNnuEQfS7/Bj1X9nxizgweiHIyFsRqgogTvLh403QMSGNSoArk tqkorf1U+VhEncIn4H3KksJF0njZKfilrieOO7Vuot1xKr9QnYrZzJ7m7ZxJ/JfKGaRHXkE1 feMmrvZD1AtdUATZkoeQtTOpMu4r6IQRfSdwm/CkppZXfDe50DJxAMDWwfK2rr2bVkNg/yZI tKLBS0YgRTIynkvv0h8d9dIjiicw3RMeYXyqOnSWVva2r+tl+JBaenr8YTQw0zARrhC0mttu cIZGnVEvQuDwib57QLqMjQaC1gazKHvhA15H5MNxUhwm229UmdH3KM7BTQRbC43GARAAyTkR D6KRJ9Xa2fVMh+6f186q0M3ni+5tsaVhUiykxjsPgkuWXWW9MbLpYXkzX6h/RIEKlo2BGA95 QwG5+Ya2Bo3g7FGJHAkXY6loq7DgMp5/TVQ8phsSv3WxPTJLCBq6vNBamp5hda4cfXFUymsy HsJy4dtgkrPQ/bnsdFDCRUuhJHopnAzKHN8APXpKU6xV5e3GE4LwFsDhNHfH/m9+2yO/trcD txSFpyftbK2gaMERHgA8SKkzRhiwRTt9w5idOfpJVkYRsgvuSGZ0pcD4kLCOIFrer5xXudk6 NgJc36XkFRMnwqrL/bB4k6Pi2u5leyqcXSLyBgeHsZJxg6Lcr2LZ35+8RQGPOw9C0ItmRjtY ZpGKPlSxjxA1WHT2YlF9CEt3nx7c4C3thHHtqBra6BGPyW8rvtq4zRqZRLPmZ0kt/kiMPhTM 8wZAlObbATVrUMcZ/uNjRv2vU9O5aTAD9E5r1B0dlqKgxyoImUWB0JgpILADaT3VybDd3C8X s6Jt8MytUP+1cEWt9VKo4vY4Jh5vwrJUDLJvzpN+TsYCZPNVj18+jf9uGRaoK6W++DdMAr5l gQiwsNgf9372dbMI7pt2gnT5/YdG+ZHnIIlXC6OUonA1Ro/Itg90Q7iQySnKKkqqnWVc+qO9 GJbzcGykxD6EQtCSlurt3/5IXTA7t6sAEQEAAcLBdgQYAQgAIBYhBA5HipsSX+lqH0rpWtNk IzqANlYGBQJbC43GAhsMAAoJENNkIzqANlYGD1sP/ikKgHgcspEKqDED9gQrTBvipH85si0j /Jwu/tBtnYjLgKLh2cjv1JkgYYjb3DyZa1pLsIv6rGnPX9bH9IN03nqirC/Q1Y1lnbNTynPk IflgvsJjoTNZjgu1wUdQlBgL/JhUp1sIYID11jZphgzfDgp/E6ve/8xE2HMAnf4zAfJaKgD0 F+fL1DlcdYUditAiYEuN40Ns/abKs8I1MYx7Yglu3RzJfBzV4t86DAR+OvuF9v188WrFwXCS RSf4DmJ8tntyNej+DVGUnmKHupLQJO7uqCKB/1HLlMKc5G3GLoGqJliHjUHUAXNzinlpE2Vj C78pxpwxRNg2ilE3AhPoAXrY5qED5PLE9sLnmQ9AzRcMMJUXjTNEDxEYbF55SdGBHHOAcZtA kEQKub86e+GHA+Z8oXQSGeSGOkqHi7zfgW1UexddTvaRwE6AyZ6FxTApm8wq8NT2cryWPWTF BDSGB3ujWHMM8ERRYJPcBSjTvt0GcEqnd+OSGgxTkGOdufn51oz82zfpVo1t+J/FNz6MRMcg 8nEC+uKvgzH1nujxJ5pRCBOquFZaGn/p71Yr0oVitkttLKblFsqwa+10Lt6HBxm+2+VLp4Ja 0WZNncZciz3V3cuArpan/ZhhyiWYV5FD0pOXPCJIx7WS9PTtxiv0AOS4ScWEUmBxyhFeOpYa DrEx In-Reply-To: <4d3871ae-6cbc-40e4-96e2-8aee37563f79@proxmox.com> X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.042 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DMARC_MISSING 0.1 Missing DMARC policy KAM_DMARC_STATUS 0.01 Test Rule for DKIM or SPF Failure with Strict Alignment RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to Validity was blocked. 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SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record Subject: Re: [pdm-devel] [PATCH proxmox-datacenter-manager 00/15] change task cache mechanism from time-based to max-size FIFO X-BeenThere: pdm-devel@lists.proxmox.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Proxmox Datacenter Manager development discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Proxmox Datacenter Manager development discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: pdm-devel-bounces@lists.proxmox.com Sender: "pdm-devel" Am 31.01.25 um 10:35 schrieb Lukas Wagner: > Some additional context as to explain the 'why', since @Thomas and @Wolfgang requested it: > > The status quo for the task cache is to fetch a certain time-based range of tasks > (iirc the last seven days) from every remote and cache this for a certain period > of time (max-age). If the cached data is too old, we discard the task data > and fetch the same time range again. > My initial reasoning behind designing it like this was to keep the > 'ground truth' completely on the remote side, so *if* somebody were to mess with Yeah, I agree with Wolfgang here, nothing in our API allows messing with that, neither does a first-class PVE CLI command or the like. If we want to hedge against that we basically cannot cache anything at all, rendering them rather useless, as even RRD metrics could be altered. Using the start-time of the newest available task from the cache as (inclusive) boundary to request newer tasks that happened since the last query would be enough or? Pruning older tasks from the cache after some max-time or max-size limit is overstepped would then make sense though. IMO it for purging older task log entries to avoid huge cache we should mainly focus on the age of entries limit, e.g. most our dashboards will focus on showing the task results since X hours, where a sensible minimum for X is probably at least 24 hours, probably better more like 3 to 5 days to be able to (quickly) see what happened over a weekend, maybe with some holiday attached to it. A generously high size limit as additional upper bound to avoid running out of space might still be nice to hedge against some node, user or api-tooling going crazy and producing a huge amount of tasks. > the task archive, we would be consistent after a refresh. Also this allowed to > keep the caching logic on PDM side much simpler, since we not doing much more > than caching the API response from the remote - the same way we already do it > for resources, subscription status, etc. > > The downside is we had some unnecessary traffic, since we keep on fetching old tasks > that we already received. > > I originally posted this as an RFC right before the holidays to get an initial approach > out to get some feedback on the approach (I wasn't too sure myself if the original approach > was a good idea) and also to somewhat unblock UI development for the remote task view. > > The RFC patches were applied relatively quickly; in a short conversation with Dietmar > he mentioned that it might be better to just fetch the most recent missing tasks so > that we don't have to retransmit the old data over and over again. Yeah, I'm still not convinced that rushing such things through, especially at RFC stage, will make overall development go quicker. Keeping communication (solely) locked in isolated off-list discussion isn't helping for sure though. Here both of that caused IMO rather more overhead. > Some time later Dominik also approached me and suggested the approach that is implemented in > this patch series. Which is > - instead of simply caching the remotes API response, we try to replicate > the task archive locally > - memorize the time when we last got the latest tasks and only request > what is missing since then > - limit the replicated task archive's size, dropping the oldest tasks > when the size is exceeded > > I didn't have any objections so I went ahead and implemented it. > > The main benefits is that we have to transmit much less data. Yes, but the original idea would act the same in this regard if it did not hedge against things that cannot really happen without manually messing around (at which point all bets are off); or what am I missing here? To be fair: I only skimmed the patches and asked Wolfgang a bit about it as he looked through them more closely, so I might indeed miss something or just be slightly confused about the presentation here. _______________________________________________ pdm-devel mailing list pdm-devel@lists.proxmox.com https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pdm-devel