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Tue, 7 Nov 2023 12:07:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 12:07:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Beta Content-Language: en-GB, de-AT To: Wolfgang Bumiller Cc: Proxmox Backup Server development discussion References: <20231023154302.2558918-2-p.hufnagl@proxmox.com> <54f6b050-02ce-4443-a3f3-e28ee2b875bd@proxmox.com> <69df7927-de20-4301-a785-2a57d53fcf2b@proxmox.com> <1b0eec17-d519-4d80-89f6-e08b9738fcd8@proxmox.com> <25pvugernovezgv6u7qw7xiucsfkvbieizj7cija7aftln74ww@fopnbametx46> From: Thomas Lamprecht Autocrypt: addr=t.lamprecht@proxmox.com; keydata= xsFNBFsLjcYBEACsaQP6uTtw/xHTUCKF4VD4/Wfg7gGn47+OfCKJQAD+Oyb3HSBkjclopC5J uXsB1vVOfqVYE6PO8FlD2L5nxgT3SWkc6Ka634G/yGDU3ZC3C/7NcDVKhSBI5E0ww4Qj8s9w OQRloemb5LOBkJNEUshkWRTHHOmk6QqFB/qBPW2COpAx6oyxVUvBCgm/1S0dAZ9gfkvpqFSD 90B5j3bL6i9FIv3YGUCgz6Ue3f7u+HsEAew6TMtlt90XV3vT4M2IOuECG/pXwTy7NtmHaBQ7 UJBcwSOpDEweNob50+9B4KbnVn1ydx+K6UnEcGDvUWBkREccvuExvupYYYQ5dIhRFf3fkS4+ wMlyAFh8PQUgauod+vqs45FJaSgTqIALSBsEHKEs6IoTXtnnpbhu3p6XBin4hunwoBFiyYt6 YHLAM1yLfCyX510DFzX/Ze2hLqatqzY5Wa7NIXqYYelz7tXiuCLHP84+sV6JtEkeSUCuOiUY virj6nT/nJK8m0BzdR6FgGtNxp7RVXFRz/+mwijJVLpFsyG1i0Hmv2zTn3h2nyGK/I6yhFNt dX69y5hbo6LAsRjLUvZeHXpTU4TrpN/WiCjJblbj5um5eEr4yhcwhVmG102puTtuCECsDucZ jpKpUqzXlpLbzG/dp9dXFH3MivvfuaHrg3MtjXY1i+/Oxyp5iwARAQABzTNUaG9tYXMgTGFt cHJlY2h0IChBdXRoLTQpIDx0LmxhbXByZWNodEBwcm94bW94LmNvbT7CwY4EEwEIADgWIQQO R4qbEl/pah9K6VrTZCM6gDZWBgUCWwuNxgIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAK CRDTZCM6gDZWBm/jD/4+6JB2s67eaqoP6x9VGaXNGJPCscwzLuxDTCG90G9FYu29VcXtubH/ bPwsyBbNUQpqTm/s4XboU2qpS5ykCuTjqavrcP33tdkYfGcItj2xMipJ1i3TWvpikQVsX42R G64wovLs/dvpTYphRZkg5DwhgTmy3mRkmofFCTa+//MOcNOORltemp984tWjpR3bUJETNWpF sKGZHa3N4kCNxb7A+VMsJZ/1gN3jbQbQG7GkJtnHlWkw9rKCYqBtWrnrHa4UAvSa9M/XCIAB FThFGqZI1ojdVlv5gd6b/nWxfOPrLlSxbUo5FZ1i/ycj7/24nznW1V4ykG9iUld4uYUY86bB UGSjew1KYp9FmvKiwEoB+zxNnuEQfS7/Bj1X9nxizgweiHIyFsRqgogTvLh403QMSGNSoArk tqkorf1U+VhEncIn4H3KksJF0njZKfilrieOO7Vuot1xKr9QnYrZzJ7m7ZxJ/JfKGaRHXkE1 feMmrvZD1AtdUATZkoeQtTOpMu4r6IQRfSdwm/CkppZXfDe50DJxAMDWwfK2rr2bVkNg/yZI tKLBS0YgRTIynkvv0h8d9dIjiicw3RMeYXyqOnSWVva2r+tl+JBaenr8YTQw0zARrhC0mttu cIZGnVEvQuDwib57QLqMjQaC1gazKHvhA15H5MNxUhwm229UmdH3KM7BTQRbC43GARAAyTkR D6KRJ9Xa2fVMh+6f186q0M3ni+5tsaVhUiykxjsPgkuWXWW9MbLpYXkzX6h/RIEKlo2BGA95 QwG5+Ya2Bo3g7FGJHAkXY6loq7DgMp5/TVQ8phsSv3WxPTJLCBq6vNBamp5hda4cfXFUymsy HsJy4dtgkrPQ/bnsdFDCRUuhJHopnAzKHN8APXpKU6xV5e3GE4LwFsDhNHfH/m9+2yO/trcD txSFpyftbK2gaMERHgA8SKkzRhiwRTt9w5idOfpJVkYRsgvuSGZ0pcD4kLCOIFrer5xXudk6 NgJc36XkFRMnwqrL/bB4k6Pi2u5leyqcXSLyBgeHsZJxg6Lcr2LZ35+8RQGPOw9C0ItmRjtY ZpGKPlSxjxA1WHT2YlF9CEt3nx7c4C3thHHtqBra6BGPyW8rvtq4zRqZRLPmZ0kt/kiMPhTM 8wZAlObbATVrUMcZ/uNjRv2vU9O5aTAD9E5r1B0dlqKgxyoImUWB0JgpILADaT3VybDd3C8X s6Jt8MytUP+1cEWt9VKo4vY4Jh5vwrJUDLJvzpN+TsYCZPNVj18+jf9uGRaoK6W++DdMAr5l gQiwsNgf9372dbMI7pt2gnT5/YdG+ZHnIIlXC6OUonA1Ro/Itg90Q7iQySnKKkqqnWVc+qO9 GJbzcGykxD6EQtCSlurt3/5IXTA7t6sAEQEAAcLBdgQYAQgAIBYhBA5HipsSX+lqH0rpWtNk IzqANlYGBQJbC43GAhsMAAoJENNkIzqANlYGD1sP/ikKgHgcspEKqDED9gQrTBvipH85si0j /Jwu/tBtnYjLgKLh2cjv1JkgYYjb3DyZa1pLsIv6rGnPX9bH9IN03nqirC/Q1Y1lnbNTynPk IflgvsJjoTNZjgu1wUdQlBgL/JhUp1sIYID11jZphgzfDgp/E6ve/8xE2HMAnf4zAfJaKgD0 F+fL1DlcdYUditAiYEuN40Ns/abKs8I1MYx7Yglu3RzJfBzV4t86DAR+OvuF9v188WrFwXCS RSf4DmJ8tntyNej+DVGUnmKHupLQJO7uqCKB/1HLlMKc5G3GLoGqJliHjUHUAXNzinlpE2Vj C78pxpwxRNg2ilE3AhPoAXrY5qED5PLE9sLnmQ9AzRcMMJUXjTNEDxEYbF55SdGBHHOAcZtA kEQKub86e+GHA+Z8oXQSGeSGOkqHi7zfgW1UexddTvaRwE6AyZ6FxTApm8wq8NT2cryWPWTF BDSGB3ujWHMM8ERRYJPcBSjTvt0GcEqnd+OSGgxTkGOdufn51oz82zfpVo1t+J/FNz6MRMcg 8nEC+uKvgzH1nujxJ5pRCBOquFZaGn/p71Yr0oVitkttLKblFsqwa+10Lt6HBxm+2+VLp4Ja 0WZNncZciz3V3cuArpan/ZhhyiWYV5FD0pOXPCJIx7WS9PTtxiv0AOS4ScWEUmBxyhFeOpYa DrEx In-Reply-To: <25pvugernovezgv6u7qw7xiucsfkvbieizj7cija7aftln74ww@fopnbametx46> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.068 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DMARC_MISSING 0.1 Missing DMARC policy KAM_DMARC_STATUS 0.01 Test Rule for DKIM or SPF Failure with Strict Alignment SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE -0.01 - Subject: Re: [pbs-devel] [PATCH proxmox-backup 1/3] fix #4315: jobs: modify GroupFilter so include/exclude is tracked X-BeenThere: pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Proxmox Backup Server development discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2023 11:07:42 -0000 Am 07/11/2023 um 09:26 schrieb Wolfgang Bumiller: > On Tue, Nov 07, 2023 at 08:55:01AM +0100, Thomas Lamprecht wrote: > I'm fine with either way in the end and think changing it later is > worse. I'm just bringing this up thinking about consistency with other my sentence wasn't finished, sorry, what I wanted to say it's easier to add ordering later, if we really must due to overwhelming user feedback, than vice versa (albeit simulating the removal of it via UI could always be done, would have it's own confusion potential though). > options following a similar mechanic. same options should follow same logic, and we have such filters for tasks and (in development) guests for bulk-actions, and also notifications matches (also in development) and to those we should align to, as they are (partially already) present in the UI, that's why I also value Lukas' opinion here, he spent more time with such higher-level matching/grouping/filter stuff already. If ordering, then it should be at least encoded explicit, the order of sub-properties in a config isn't mattering for anything IIRC. >> >>> CLI via `--exclude` when creating a backup with proxmox-backup-client= =2E >> >> Which is not really good UX, the "find" core util, and similar consort= s, >> are exactly deemed as hard to understand as that implicit order matter= s >> is making it harder for users, especially those without a programming >> background (i.e., the majority of our users). >=20 > Contrary to most tools, options come after the paths, you use single > dashes for long options, use exclamation marks for inversion which used= > to get butchered by most shells with history expansion unless they > recognize `find` themselves and parenthesis which don't work if you > don't have spaces around them as they need to be actual separate > parameters so you also need to watch for quotes... >=20 > But sure, let's say the ordering is the issue... =F0=9F=99=84 you know that there can be more than one issue at the same time.. Again, ordering is *another* dimension, just like inversions and grouping= via parenthesis is, adding more of them is never going to make things easier, but sure, more expressive and often turing complete, depending on the use case that can be great or not =E2=80=93 here it's not. > The thing is, includes and excludes are conflicting statements, they > must be resolved somehow, and in regular speech it's often by order. > Which is not to say that people wouldn't get confused *regardless*, eve= n > if you use precise language. Yeah sure, it's a given that one cannot make all users content at the same time > Then again, we also have a whole group of people insisting on > always saying "including but not limited to...". > I guess there's a point to that if we change the default depending on > whether only includes or only excludes are present. The defaults should IMO be unrelated to the existence of entries for the other thing, and be: Include: All Exclude: None > Ultimately, *that* is the part that would confuse the hell out of me, > personally, but sure, you'll end up dealing with both types of users > anyway, so as long as that behavior is documented... =F0=9F=A4=B7 >=20 What part do you mean exactly here? >>> This makes it much easier to say things like "exclude 1-100 except 50= ", >> >> Not really, you just use "include 50" and if the remaining set is bigg= er >> do "exclude 1-49; exclude 51-100;" and especially in bigger examples t= his >> is easier to reason about for the standard users. >=20 > Maybe we have different interpretations of the word "easier" :-P definitively about the word "much" ;-)