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Subject: Re: [pve-devel] [RFC qemu/storage/qemu-server/container/manager
 00/23] backup provider API
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Subject: Re: [pve-devel] [RFC qemu/storage/qemu-server/container/manager
 00/23] backup provider API
From: Jonathan Nicklin <jnicklin@blockbridge.com>
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I 100% concur. I am not suggesting any breaking changes; I was just =
wondering if this work on the API unlocked any new optimizations to make =
the interactions between the backup client, PBS, and storage more =
efficient. And also, bbgeek has pinged me to check out the awesome work =
going on in this space :)

Between your and Dietmar's replies, I see the constraints and potential =
avenues for improvement. Thanks for your reply!

Respectfully,
-Jonathan

> On Jul 29, 2024, at 4:15 AM, Fiona Ebner <f.ebner@proxmox.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Am 26.07.24 um 21:47 schrieb Jonathan Nicklin via pve-devel:
>>=20
>> Hi Fiona,
>>=20
>> Would adding support for offloading incremental difference detection
>> to the underlying storage be feasible with the API updates? The QEMU
>> bitmap strategy works for all storage devices but is far from
>> optimal. If backup coordinated a storage snapshot, the underlying
>> storage could enumerate the differences (or generate a bitmap).
>>=20
>> This would allow PBS to connect directly to storage and retrieve
>> incremental differences, which could remove the PVE hosts from the
>> equation. This "storage-direct" approach for backup would improve
>> performance, reduce resources, and support incremental backups in all
>> cases (i.e., power failues, shutdowns, etc.). It would also eliminate
>> the dependency on QEMU bitmaps and the overhead of fleecing.
>>=20
>> Theoretically, this should be possible with any shared storage that
>> can enumerate incremental differences between snapshots: Ceph,
>> Blockbridge, iSCSi/ZFS?
>>=20
>> Thoughts?
>>=20
>=20
> The two big advantages of the current mechanism are:
>=20
> 1. it's completely storage-agnostic, so you can even use it with raw
> files on a directory storage. It follows in the same spirit as =
existing
> backup. Prohibiting backup for users when they use certain kinds of
> storages for VMs is not nice.
> 2. it's been battle-tested with PBS and works nicely.
>=20
> I don't see why your suggestion can't be implemented in principle.
> Feature requests for (non-incremental) "storage-snapshot" mode backup
> have been around since a while. It was not a priority for development
> yet and is totally different from the current "snapshot" backup mode, =
so
> will need to be developed from the ground up.
>=20
> That said, AFAICS, it's orthogonal to the series here. When an
> implementation like you outlined exists, it can just be added as a new
> backup mechanism for external providers (and PBS).
>=20
> See also the related discussion over at:
> https://bugzilla.proxmox.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3D3233#c19
>=20
> Best Regards,
> Fiona
>=20



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