From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (firstgate.proxmox.com [212.224.123.68]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.proxmox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D7B89F911 for <pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:55:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from firstgate.proxmox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id E68551E7D7 for <pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:55:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from proxmox-new.maurer-it.com (proxmox-new.maurer-it.com [94.136.29.106]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by firstgate.proxmox.com (Proxmox) with ESMTPS for <pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:55:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from proxmox-new.maurer-it.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by proxmox-new.maurer-it.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id A68BE46E20 for <pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com>; Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:55:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <ae228735-6ea8-4f49-94f8-1da29c091c77@proxmox.com> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:55:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Beta Content-Language: de-AT, en-US To: Wolfgang Bumiller <w.bumiller@proxmox.com> Cc: Philipp Hufnagl <p.hufnagl@proxmox.com>, Proxmox Backup Server development discussion <pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com>, Lukas Wagner <l.wagner@proxmox.com> References: <20231023154302.2558918-1-p.hufnagl@proxmox.com> <20231023154302.2558918-2-p.hufnagl@proxmox.com> <54f6b050-02ce-4443-a3f3-e28ee2b875bd@proxmox.com> <fb844e0d-26ad-4a7c-a8e5-5d99c29c7b01@proxmox.com> <d9a94b91-e13a-470e-87c9-a600d7cb9d10@proxmox.com> <dc0cc081-ee54-4016-af3f-9a372faba9d1@proxmox.com> <69df7927-de20-4301-a785-2a57d53fcf2b@proxmox.com> <b42c40b6-b8f9-4269-9440-d527fb940b97@proxmox.com> <1b0eec17-d519-4d80-89f6-e08b9738fcd8@proxmox.com> <skraqtvbzlpulrr4u2joslsui7mhce2sichjefpnapbidspcjr@a3c4s3zmq7oy> From: Thomas Lamprecht <t.lamprecht@proxmox.com> Autocrypt: addr=t.lamprecht@proxmox.com; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.068 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DMARC_MISSING 0.1 Missing DMARC policy KAM_DMARC_STATUS 0.01 Test Rule for DKIM or SPF Failure with Strict Alignment SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE -0.01 - Subject: Re: [pbs-devel] [PATCH proxmox-backup 1/3] fix #4315: jobs: modify GroupFilter so include/exclude is tracked X-BeenThere: pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Proxmox Backup Server development discussion <pbs-devel.lists.proxmox.com> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/options/pbs-devel>, <mailto:pbs-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.proxmox.com/pipermail/pbs-devel/> List-Post: <mailto:pbs-devel@lists.proxmox.com> List-Help: <mailto:pbs-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.proxmox.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pbs-devel>, <mailto:pbs-devel-request@lists.proxmox.com?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2023 07:55:04 -0000 Am 07/11/2023 um 08:43 schrieb Wolfgang Bumiller: > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 05:45:11PM +0200, Thomas Lamprecht wrote: >> Easier to understand is *much* cleaner though, any admin that changes >> a simple include/exclude filter manually, e.g., reversing the order, >> has no idea that the end result is completely different. > > I disagree that either of them is actually easier, and we already have > order dependent include/exclude behavior in `.pxarexcludes` and on the order is an extra dimension that users need to take care when writing these, so by that alone it's easy to state that not having that is simpler (naturally one can make it way worse by doing a bad UI, but well, just don't do that). And, we can always go for an order adhering model later > CLI via `--exclude` when creating a backup with proxmox-backup-client. Which is not really good UX, the "find" core util, and similar consorts, are exactly deemed as hard to understand as that implicit order matters is making it harder for users, especially those without a programming background (i.e., the majority of our users). > Also, `.gitignore` also works like this, you have exclude and includes > in order, the last match wins. Not sure if git should be used a pillar of good UX example, some would even say that doing the opposite might be warranted in that case ;-P > This makes it much easier to say things like "exclude 1-100 except 50", Not really, you just use "include 50" and if the remaining set is bigger do "exclude 1-49; exclude 51-100;" and especially in bigger examples this is easier to reason about for the standard users. > which, to me, seems like the most complex case you would want anyway? > > Which you find easier probably depends on what you see more often, but > for consistency's sake it may make more sense to stick to what we > already have? pxarexclude has nothing to do with this though? Would not mix walking a file-system with filtering backup groups, two very different things.